Herman
The Image Stimulator
- Location
- The Netherlands
- Name
- Herman
-
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Herman
The Image Stimulator
- Location
- The Netherlands
- Name
- Herman
Herman you must've been reading some old posts
Herman
The Image Stimulator
- Location
- The Netherlands
- Name
- Herman
- Location
- Seattle
- Name
- Andrew
Personally I think the M10 is way more appealing than the M11. The M11 is a mirrorless camera for which the rangefinder is an afterthought. The M10 is from the line of rangefinders for which the mirrorless capability is an afterthought. I prefer the latter (having never actually touched either camera).
- Name
- Miguel Tejada-Flores
With regards to XPro's specifically, and Fuji's in general...
In my own case, I've been a long-term fan of the X100 series for ages. Almost bought one. Then, at some point, I got the smaller (and small-sensored) 2nd cousin of the X100, the tiny X30, with its expandable-collapsible zoom, its relatively quick lens and its superb macro capabilities. Liked it so much that it has become one of my regular smallish semi-pocketable travel cameras.
But the X-Pro's are an entirely different beast. Years ago, I had the opportunity to fool around and play around with one for awhile, and was surprised by how much I liked most of it. A few things left me indifferent, including the much-touted switchable OVF, that I simply didn't care for. Fast forward a few years and, driven by curiosity, by the reviews I had read, and by my years of analog film only shooting (mainly Pentaxes, but also my father's Leica and Contax), I made a relatively expensive impulse buy and acquired a lightly-used X-Pro3. It quickly became my favorite digital camera ever - both because of the way it feels in hand, its pleasing (to me) dials, and its seductive (to me, again) in-camera jpeg profiles, especially 'Classic Neg' (but also 'Acros'). People occasionally wax poetic about how certain cameras make them rethink their photography... well, with very little exaggeration, that's what the X-Pro3 did for me. And, yes, I actually truly like the lack of an easily accessible rear screen. That said, there are quite a few X-Pro2 diehards who love their cameras and loathe the XPro3, so... go figure. One man's meat is, as the old metaphor says, another's poison. But the point of this digression is--- if you are at all intrigued or interested by XPro's, I would recommend borrowing or renting or finding a way to play around with one. They (especially the XPro3) really are... different. In many ways. (So far, the lack of IBIS hasn't bothered me.)
One final Fuji note: a friend recently bought a 1st generation X-H1 and let me play around with it. It's a very cool camera - especially its glorious EVF. Those who know (or who think they know) insist that the EVF's in both the Panasonic S1 and the Leica SL may be the best ever, for any digital camera. Being unfamiliar with those two cameras and thus ignorant, I couldn't say; but the XH1's EVF is the nicest digital viewfinder I've ever seen, and that includes my late (but still missed) GX8, which had a truly fine one. But handling the XH1 really made me understand, in a much more visceral way, why Mike Johnston (of TheOnlinePhotographer) raved about the X-H1 so much, a few years back. He was probably right to do so.
You brave brave man - oh hang on, this is Cameraderie, not that Leica forum
. But seriously, it will be interesting to see how the next model “updates” things even further.While I disagree with you on the cheeky mirrorless/rangefinder distinction, I certainly see which angle you are coming at this. I had similar worries about the direction Leica was taking the lineup!
But luckily, for me, my fears about M11 vanished once I had one in my hand. The dreaded new shutter exhibits zero delay and is generally very well dampened and tuned. The purist in me laments the loss of the classical metering off the shutter blades -- what a nice trick eh? But my first and foremost impression is that M10 and M11 are equally "computery" with my MP240. They just happen to contain faster computer chips in them. After seeing the M11 first hand, there's no real reason for me to lust after an M10 model anymore.
There will be a model that will break the camel's back. To me, M11 is not that model. Maybe the rangefinder is discarded in favor of an EVF? Then the game would be lost. I'm hopeful but I think Leica engineers and salespeople know that the rangefinder is the most unique thing that makes the brand. In any case, at least we have 4 more years before the M12.You brave brave man - oh hang on, this is Cameraderie, not that Leica forum
And if everything else fails, if the M12 should prove to be a computer disaster, a codevelopment with Sony or something equally horrific, we can all rest easy knowing that film isn't going anywhere and old film Leicas can get a lot of 3rd party service.
I certainly see and hear a lot of rave about the Xpro cameras. Well built, designed with soul and lots of care. Quite probably one of the finest mirrorless cameras among any brand. But perhaps my potential issue with the Xpro is simpler. It's so close to a rangefinder in look and style but can never match the feel of a real one. It lies in the uncanny valley. The promise is almost tangible -- you can almost, just almost shoot it like a much more expensive (and more limited) Leica M, but without the optical rangefinder everything falls flat for me. You can only rely on computers to have your shot focused or focus confirmed. At least this is what I fear.
The promise is quite strong. You can adapt and shoot various lenses on it, use the Fuji focusing aides that are (to me) about the best in class. Or if you are feeling a bit lazy, mount a native Fujinon with a blazing fast autofocus and enjoy a weather-sealed gentlemanly "point and shoot". All for a fraction of an equivalent Leica setup.
At the very minimum, I should head to a store that once had an Xpro2 on display and play with it a bit more.
Watching so many people on multiple forums who had never even held an X-H1 in their hands bash the camera was funny & cringeworthy. To me anyways. While not considered "traditional" Fuji X, it was never a bad camera (nor the best). It's been fun watching people come around to that observation the last couple of years.
- Location
- Seattle
- Name
- Andrew
I think the big distinction is between metering off the shutter blades versus having the shutter open all the time like a mirrorless camera. Sure, it may not mean much to the user, and that may be the main point, but I think there's a distinct difference in the behavior of a camera with those differences. To be honest, the M11 is a live view camera where the workaround is to operate as a rangefinder. You're obtaining that live view feed and choosing not to use it. With the previous cameras, you had to have the camera work around things to give you a live view - like a DSLR does. Again, the experience for the user might be minimally different. But, let's face it, Leica people love semantics, and from the purely semantic point of view, the M11 is a different kind of camera than the M10 and previous. Them's the facts. You can put me in the stocks now: like Sir Ulrich Von Liechtenstein, I am willing to suffer for my principles
I will continue to disagree with you on the rf/mirrorless part because it is such a beautiful design that the optical viewfinder is not blocked nor needs to be worked around while the camera is in live view mode. (Or indeed, vice versa.)
I've walked an occasional about with MP240 and Nikkor 85/1.8. This camera's live view is of course terribly laggy and produces tremendous shutter lag but I would often use it to focus the foreign lens, then switch it off and time my premetered shot through the OVF. Image quality wise, film-era Nikkors go very well against the sensor stack of the M240.
Another obvious usecase is when I would sometime shoot the 21mm. Then I'd frame my shot through the LV and then focus and time the shot through the OVF. It's all fluent-ish, the LV toggle is accessible enough. (But I'd most always disable the LV when I am about to time and take the shot, to avoid delay and sluggishness.)
I've expressed time and time again hope about a mirrorless body that could take them all. Adapt Nikkors and M lenses and everything to good success. M11 must be the best candidate for this, despite not having the best EVF options.
(Or indeed, vice versa.)I've walked an occasional about with MP240 and Nikkor 85/1.8. This camera's live view is of course terribly laggy and produces tremendous shutter lag but I would often use it to focus the foreign lens, then switch it off and time my premetered shot through the OVF. Image quality wise, film-era Nikkors go very well against the sensor stack of the M240.
Another obvious usecase is when I would sometime shoot the 21mm. Then I'd frame my shot through the LV and then focus and time the shot through the OVF. It's all fluent-ish, the LV toggle is accessible enough. (But I'd most always disable the LV when I am about to time and take the shot, to avoid delay and sluggishness.)
I've expressed time and time again hope about a mirrorless body that could take them all. Adapt Nikkors and M lenses and everything to good success. M11 must be the best candidate for this, despite not having the best EVF options.
To sidetrack to this thing for a moment, the seller of this camera lives two hours or roughly 12 € away from me.
I asked some pictures and he obliged. He did mention that the camera is well used (but working) and the pictures are honest to a fault.
I suddenly remembered all those mu43 threads about skipping dials and rubber materials unsticking and what else little manufacturer faults the E-M1.2 occasionally exhibits.
And now the big question: do you go for a 500 € killer deal (body, 3 OEM batteries, OEM battery grip) or spend 200-300 € extra for a preowned camera that comes with return policy or even a warranty period (MPB).
Herman
The Image Stimulator
- Location
- The Netherlands
- Name
- Herman
Hi @mike3996 I took a quick look on the internet.
Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II systeemcamera Body Zwart - Tweedehands
Body, flash unit, 1 year guarantee, charger, battery etc.
Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II systeemcamera Body Zwart - Tweedehands
Body, flash unit, 1 year guarantee, charger, battery etc.
Herman
The Image Stimulator
- Location
- The Netherlands
- Name
- Herman
Not interested in the old E-M1. It would be a cool camera but supposedly suffers from shutter shock and it will not use PDAF in S-AF mode -- a thing that interests me the most.
I will be meeting the seller of the killer deal in Helsinki on Saturday. There's conveniently a birding event he's attending. From the program it seems there are several OM System booths and presentations there. Maybe I can also get my hands on the new OM-1?
This is great. It'll get me "out of bed" on Saturday and make a trip. It'll probably the last hot day of the season so let's try to enjoy that aspect as well.
I will be meeting the seller of the killer deal in Helsinki on Saturday. There's conveniently a birding event he's attending. From the program it seems there are several OM System booths and presentations there. Maybe I can also get my hands on the new OM-1?
This is great. It'll get me "out of bed" on Saturday and make a trip. It'll probably the last hot day of the season so let's try to enjoy that aspect as well.
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