Fuji Fuji Full Frame

Iansky

All-Pro
Dec 8, 2011
Cotswolds, UK
I was hoping that following some interviews with senior members of Fuji that we may have heard some more information on the possible introduction of a full frame camera.

There has been the announcement of the X100s / X20 and I suspect we will not have to wait too long for a replacement / upgrade for the XPro-1, but I still suspect Fuji will be working hard on a full frame and if so will it be a relative of the Xtrans sensor and what format will it take?

Personally, I would not be surprised to see them introduce a full frame DSLR once more as I do not think they would want to impact current sales / satisfaction with retro models.

Time will tell and lets hope we hear something soon.
 

carlb

All-Pro
Feb 6, 2013
... Personally, I would not be surprised to see them introduce a full frame DSLR once more as I do not think they would want to impact current sales / satisfaction with retro models ...
They could create quite the smash if they introduced a full-frame auto-focus with split-image manual focus (i.e. rangefinder-like manual focus ala X100s) "M-mount+" camera + lenses. The "M-mount+" Would mean Leica mechanical with added auto-focus and aperture contacts.

Imagine the camera and lens sales for great quality at a third of Leica's price, plus auto-focus ...
 

Iansky

All-Pro
Dec 8, 2011
Cotswolds, UK
They could create quite the smash if they introduced a full-frame auto-focus with split-image manual focus (i.e. rangefinder-like manual focus ala X100s) "M-mount+" camera + lenses. The "M-mount+" Would mean Leica mechanical with added auto-focus and aperture contacts.

Imagine the camera and lens sales for great quality at a third of Leica's price, plus auto-focus ...
I suspect this would not be on the cards at the current time (even though it would be great) as it would impact the XPro-1 range and new lenses.

A full frame sensor will require new lenses as well so either way a costly risk for Fuji in the current climate.
 

Steve B.

Regular
Feb 2, 2013
Given their experience in producing high quality optics for larger formats, I wouldn't be surprised to see them doing MF at some point.
 

Pelao

All-Pro
Jul 11, 2010
Ontario, Canada
Stephen
Well it would be nice, and I am certain they have had some serious thinking on it. But it's a huge investment, almost certainly involving a new lens range. If one of their target competitors is Leica, it may make sense to tackle the Leica S series, and do something closer to MF. As Steve noted, they know what they are doing in that field.
 
A full frame csc is more likely then a dslr. Last time they did one was based on nikon dslr bodies, so they were always behind the eight ball.. The Canon and Nikon camps have pretty well locked up the market, w/ Sony a distant third in my IMHO. On the other hand, the full frame csc market is still wide open.

For me, the current apsc xtran sensor delivers everything I need, given their fast 1.4 lenses and the availability via adaption of even faster lenses.. Or even the native x-mount from third party vendors which have started to appear.

Full frame would give me better
- subject separation (don't use very much)
- dynamic range
- much higher iso w/ better noise suppression (currently already good enough for me)

At cost of
- new lens system, at best may be same as Nikon FX vs DX, but same x-mount
- heavier camera system
- higher cost then present APS-c system

Outside of better dynamic range, which advances in current sensor technology may take care of, I am perfectly happy w/ their APS-c solution... It is a good happy balance. There was a time I wanted full frame so my wide angles from rf or slr film days were true wide angles, but the Fuji native lenses are so good, that is not an issue any longer for me.

At end of the day, full frame market segment may not be as big as apsc. If Fuji decides to go after this market, then I hope it is after they release the next ten xp1.

Cheers
Gary
 

Lawrence A.

Hall of Famer
Nov 8, 2012
New Mexico
Larry
Well, I wish someone other than Leica -- whose ff digital body I cannot and never will be able to afford -- would come out with a full frame rangefinder with an M mount. I had hoped Cosina would take the bait, since they have the Bessa line doing the same thing for film M's, but it doesn't look like they are ready to bite. Someone ought to take on Leica's finicky and over the top expensive bodies.
 

Iansky

All-Pro
Dec 8, 2011
Cotswolds, UK
I think next year will prove a very challenging year for camera manufacturers as the promsing improvement in finances may prompt them to compete in the smaller format full frame challenge started by Sony - now we have a benchmark, interchangeable lens cameras in that small format are the next hurdle.
 

flysurfer

Hall of Famer
Aug 31, 2011
I am pretty sure that Fuji will enter this market with a FF version of the X100S. If that works and there's actual demand, I guess there's reason to believe that a FF system is in the cards, as well. However, IMHO this is only reasonable once the current APS-C system has been fully established.

From a technological standpoint, Fuji can design and produce a FF system anytime. So this is more about timing/marketing and delivering the right product at the right time at the right price, and w/o cannibalizing APS-C camera sales or, even worse, offending Fuji APS-C system customers who may be led to believe that Fuji's cutting-edge efforts in camera and lens design are now all directed towards "superior" FF models, not the "consumer grade" APS-C cameras.

If Fuji isn't planning this carefully, it could backfire. While selling 10.000 expensive FF bodies, Fuji may at the same time lose sales of 50.000 APS-C bodies.
 
P

pniev

Guest
However, IMHO this is only reasonable once the current APS-C system has been fully established. ..............
If Fuji isn't planning this carefully, it could backfire. While selling 10.000 expensive FF bodies, Fuji may at the same time lose sales of 50.000 APS-C bodies.
I am not sure if I am with you on this one. Couldn't you also argue that the introduction of the X-E1 gives room for upgrading the X-Pro line to FF? It might be very smart from a marketing perspective to have an APS-C X-E line (with exchangeable and fixed lenses) and an FF x-pro line. The current price difference hardly justifies opting for the X-pro1. I am not familiar with sales numbers but isn't the X-pro1 fat behind in sales compared to the X-E1. Integrating a FF sensor in the x-Pro(x) distinguishes the X-pro line clearly from the x-ex line and justifies a price increase.

First introducing a fixed lens FF camera may or may not be necessary depending on the capacity to invest in lenses for the FF cameras. When this is going to happen is another question. The good folks at Fuji may have concluded that it is not necessary yet to launch a FF line as long the APS-C is able to compete with FF DLSR cameras (which makes sense to me) and to concentrate first on getting everything right (AF, lens portfolio for APS-C, etc.).

Peter
 

Lightmancer

Legend
Aug 13, 2011
Sunny Frimley
Bill Palmer
Fuji's current lineup of X mount lenses don't cover full frame? If not, it's pretty short-sighted.
Is that a fact you are quoting, or internet speculation? Focal length would vary but that is not the same as not "covering".

As a Leica film and Fuji digital user, I don't see an issue here... APS-C is now a well-established and optimised frame size, with a number of camera/lens combinations available that will match and in some cases out-perform a FF when all is taken into consideration. It's true to say that a good big 'un will always beat a good little 'un, but equally bigger is not always better... Fuji have hit a purple patch with the x-series, IMO, and I would rather judge by results and reality than wish for something that they simply don't need to do right now.

Sent from another Galaxy
 

flysurfer

Hall of Famer
Aug 31, 2011
Fuji's current lineup of X mount lenses don't cover full frame? If not, it's pretty short-sighted.
I am also very disappointed that the current lineup of Nikon, Canon and Sony DSLR lenses doesn't cover medium format. Very short-sighted, what were they thinking? Sure, such lenses would be twice as large and heavy and three times as expensive, but who cares, everybody would still buy and carry them, because you never know what the future brings, right?
 

CaptZoom

Veteran
Mar 22, 2013
Original statement by me:
Fuji's current lineup of X mount lenses don't cover full frame? If not, it's pretty short-sighted.
-- -- -- --
Is that a fact you are quoting, or internet speculation?
I'm asking a question with an additional comment depending on the answer.

Focal length would vary but that is not the same as not "covering".
I did not say this. While we're in photography class, lets not forget to note that the depth of field changes significantly for a given lens used on a full frame vs cropped sensor.

As a Leica film and Fuji digital user, I don't see an issue here...
There is an issue here if Fuji wants to introduce a full frame camera. Of course the issue only arises if the current lineup of X mount lenses do not cover a full frame sensor. Lens size does not go up drastically between APS-C size and FF sensors. Sensors are getting cheaper to produce. The demand for full frame sensor equipped cameras is rising. I find it difficult to believe Fuji would choose to restrict themselves from entering the FF market, but needing to develop a whole new series of lenses.


APS-C is now a well-established and optimised frame size, with a number of camera/lens combinations available that will match and in some cases out-perform a FF when all is taken into consideration. It's true to say that a good big 'un will always beat a good little 'un, but equally bigger is not always better... Fuji have hit a purple patch with the x-series, IMO, and I would rather judge by results and reality than wish for something that they simply don't need to do right now.

Sent from another Galaxy
I agree the APS-C is an established sensor size, and I have no idea what you mean by it being optimized. As for your comment regarding one out performing the other, that is a vague statement and it depends entirely on what is being compared and how.


-- -- -- --
I am also very disappointed that the current lineup of Nikon, Canon and Sony DSLR lenses doesn't cover medium format. Very short-sighted, what were they thinking? Sure, such lenses would be twice as large and heavy and three times as expensive, but who cares, everybody would still buy and carry them, because you never know what the future brings, right?
Interestingly, Canon's new tilt/shift L lenses do in fact cover medium format sensors:)
I wasn't aware that MF is a commonly used format, nor was I aware that this thread is about Fuji heading in that direction regarding their cameras. I'm happy and satisfied with my choices of gear, hence I don't get aggressively defensive about them. How about you?
 

flysurfer

Hall of Famer
Aug 31, 2011
Me? I'm glad that Fuji developed and sold light, good and affordable APS-C lenses for their APS-C system insteads of twice as heavy, twice as big and three times as epensive full-frame lenses without FF bodies. That would have been the pinnacle of stupidity.

Interestingly, many APD-C DSLR users complain about a lack of good (high-end) APS-C lenses for their system. They don't want to be forced to buy heavy, large, expensive FF lenses and use them in cropping mode. Even more interestingly, these DSLR users are often looking at the MILC market as an alternative.

As of today, there's absolutely no Fuji FF MILC system on the horizon. It may come in late 2014 (Photokina) or 2015 (CES), but I guess not before testing the waters with a FF version of the X100S. Such a FF compact might be feasable for CES 2014 as an "RX1 killer", and it would be a risk, as it would send a message to (potential) X-Mount users that their system is about to become second tier. Many would ask: So if Fuji is developing a new FF MILC system with FF lenses, how much effort will they still spend on their X-Mount APS-C system? Will it still be cutting-edge, or will the really good stuff be reserved for the new FF system?

Fuji may sell 20,000 FF MILC bodies, but lose sales of 100,000 APS-C bodies because people stop believing that APS-C has a bright future and longterm perspective at Fujifilm.

Fuji tells me that it wouldn't be a technical challenge for them to develop FF compacts or MILCs. They have the knowhow, the money and the means, and they can for sure develop great Fujonon FF lenses. Unlike Sony, they need no Zeiss to deliver premium lens products. However, this is not about technology, it's about marketing and doing the right thing.
 

CaptZoom

Veteran
Mar 22, 2013
Me? I'm glad that Fuji developed and sold light, good and affordable APS-C lenses for their APS-C system insteads of twice as heavy, twice as big and three times as epensive full-frame lenses without FF bodies.
Are you sure you're not comparing FF lenses with m4/3 lenses, instead of APS-C and FF?

That would have been the pinnacle of stupidity.
Interestingly, many APD-C DSLR users complain about a lack of good (high-end) APS-C lenses for their system. They don't want to be forced to buy heavy, large, expensive FF lenses and use them in cropping mode.
So...the current X mount lenses aren't used in "cropping mode" or in other words, the Fuji 18mm lens gives a 18mm focal length?

Even more interestingly, these DSLR users are often looking at the MILC market as an alternative.
As of today, there's absolutely no Fuji FF MILC system on the horizon. It may come in late 2014 (Photokina) or 2015 (CES), but I guess not before testing the waters with a FF version of the X100S. Such a FF compact might be feasable for CES 2014 as an "RX1 killer", and it would be a risk, as it would send a message to (potential) X-Mount users that their system is about to become second tier. Many would ask: So if Fuji is developing a new FF MILC system with FF lenses, how much effort will they still spend on their X-Mount APS-C system? Will it still be cutting-edge, or will the really good stuff be reserved for the new FF system?

Fuji may sell 20,000 FF MILC bodies, but lose sales of 100,000 APS-C bodies because people stop believing that APS-C has a bright future and longterm perspective at Fujifilm.
So it's better to let competitors cannibalize sales? Lets not forget all the angry users who will need to invest in a whole new set of lenses when Fuji goes to full frame. And it is only a matter if time before Fuji will need to start competing in the FF market. I think Sony's got the right both in cannibalizing itself (rather than letting the competition do it) and taking a lead in FF camera innovation.

Fuji tells me that it wouldn't be a technical challenge for them to develop FF compacts or MILCs. They have the knowhow, the money and the means, and they can for sure develop great Fujonon FF lenses. Unlike Sony, they need no Zeiss to deliver premium lens products. However, this is not about technology, it's about marketing and doing the right thing.
Marketing and doing the right thing are rarely ever the same thing. I do not care who makes the lenses for my gear so long as they satisfy my needs; Cosina Voigtlander/Ziess make some phenomenal lenses and I would not be ashamed to use them. In fact, I do.

In any case, you seem to be acknowledging that Fuji's X mount lenses do not create an image circle sufficient for covering a full frame sensor. Is that correct?
 

Ramirez

Regular
Sep 6, 2012
How about the APS-H format (1.3 crop factor?) for the X-Pro line?

Would the XF lenses work with the APS-H sensor?

An APS-H X trans sensor on the X-Pro2 or X-Pro3 and APS-C for the X-E line.
 

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