Leica Leica SL

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dalethorn

Guest
I suspect this is simply about different kinds of shooters. I do things differently than what you're used to. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that, it just seems odd for you to firmly deny that photographers like me, who handhold D4/5 class cameras, exist.

I do not doubt your experience in your camera club. I'm sure that photographers in your milieu who shoot with heavy rigs use tripods exclusively. And when I go to Wakodahatchee Wetlands, I do see that essentially everyone with really heavy glass shoots with a tripod. I go around Wakodahatchee without a tripod, normally using the 80-400 f/4.5. The combination of the D5 and that lens has enabled me to take pictures I'm really happy with.

I have taken literally hundreds of thousands of photos hand-held with the D4 and D5. My D4 had 450,000 shutter clicks when I switched to the D5, and my D5 has 45,664 shutter clicks. I would say I use a tripod about 1% of the time. My kind of photography is spontaneous and in the moment, and a tripod would slow me down way too much. You could say that I basically shoot like a photojournalist, the subset of photographers for which the D5 was designed and built.

The last 50 of my Facebook albums were taken with the D5, approximately 99% handheld:

David H Dennis | Facebook

A few minutes on Google shows that I am not alone:

Jared Lloyd Photography - handholding with the D5 and 600mm off a rocking kayak! Kudos to this man!
Nikon D5 - talking about walking around, handholding with the D5 at ultra-high ISOs.
Nikon D5 with Sigma 150-600 sport - a bunch of shots he handheld with his D5 and (also very heavy) Sigma 150-600 lens.

Now, I'm not saying that I don't get weary of handholding it after an hour or so of having the giant millstone around my neck, but I do love photography with it and the pictures I take with it.

Peace.
I just did some reality checking with my favorite pro photographers today. Conclusion: Unless you're built like a gorilla, a 5.5 lb camera for daytime handheld shooting is a no-go. But I knew that already being a strong person myself, where even 3 lbs is too much for long-term use.
 

Hap

Top Veteran
Jan 9, 2016
28
I even think my M film leicas are kind of heavy. Certainly my Hasselblad is heavy enough and I don't think I would like to carry it around for hours. It gets used in bursts of energy. Recently I dragged out my CLE and CL. Felt great (and small/light) As I sift through some forum commentaries etc, I get the idea that for amateurs and maybe some pros, there is a building movement to experiment with and use much smaller cameras for purposes typically reserved for big cams and BIG glass. Like wildlife/birding for example or certain non professional sports. More people trying Oly m4/3 and their professional long zooms with dual IBIS etc...or even a late generation Nikon 1 with it's pro class long zoom. some people are getting excited about certain "bridge" cams like RX10 III for this kind of thing as long as not pro. All of these with super fast AF and object tracking and high FPS with electronic shutters. As the sensors improve and the glass is designed carefully to match, it seems this is a reasonable way to go....if that's where you are going. I am not sure why D5 was designed to be very fast...but also 4kvideo....which may seem incompatible with hand holding. I'm kind of happy with a D7100 and a Nikon 1. Plastic heaven.
 
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dalethorn

Guest
I hope I didn't say this already, but belonging to several camera clubs, the Big Iron sits on tripods at the photo outings. I don't doubt that someone with big muscles breaks the mold - I've broken molds in numerous applications. But I have a good memory for what I see. I was very interested in the SL, for one - because I hate SLRs and mirrors etc. It was that huge heavy lens that convinced me to skip the SL, at least until a better option is available.
 

Hap

Top Veteran
Jan 9, 2016
28
The fact is....that big sensors are going to require BIG GLASS.....and lots of heavy parts. The innovations, as they seem to be slowly coming , are in part related to the advances with the smaller sensors and reasonable glass. There are very small and light APSC DSLR's out there and they are getting very cheap.....but somehow not that desirable. There is a strong movement for mirrorless fixed lens cameras. LIke the X or even the Q....or how about the venerable GR...or maybe the Nikon A, that I never bought? Dale seems to have a nice mix of cameras meant to have very good IQ...but useful, take along Form factors. I like the idea (in film) of leica RF's with small lenses, even if they are somewhat quirky or compromised in some definable element of performance. I 'd like to try one of those 28mm or 35mm MS Optical updated old lens designs.....
 
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dalethorn

Guest
The fact is....that big sensors are going to require BIG GLASS.....and lots of heavy parts. The innovations, as they seem to be slowly coming , are in part related to the advances with the smaller sensors and reasonable glass. There are very small and light APSC DSLR's out there and they are getting very cheap.....but somehow not that desirable. There is a strong movement for mirrorless fixed lens cameras. LIke the X or even the Q....or how about the venerable GR...or maybe the Nikon A, that I never bought? Dale seems to have a nice mix of cameras meant to have very good IQ...but useful, take along Form factors. I like the idea (in film) of leica RF's with small lenses, even if they are somewhat quirky or compromised in some definable element of performance. I 'd like to try one of those 28mm or 35mm MS Optical updated old lens designs.....
Are you saying that a 50 mm lens on a Leica M is "really big" glass? I don't think so.
 

rbelyell

All-Pro
May 14, 2013
88
NY Mtns
'big sensors are going to require BIG glass', simply not true. too many examples to list. try googling m9, a7r, pentax k1/fa ltd...on and on
 

Hap

Top Veteran
Jan 9, 2016
28
the fast lenses like Otus and others, including zooms what I am talking about ...in generalities. Even the G Nikon lenses, primes, are pretty large for FX once you get past 50mm. Relative for the lenses built for m4/3 and smaller sensors, that some folks are gravitating to for travel, special purposes. there's a big penalty to pay , however, for being imprecise around here.:)

sure, there are reasonable lenses for FF.
 
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dalethorn

Guest
the fast lenses like Otus and others, including zooms what I am talking about ...in generalities. Even the G Nikon lenses, primes, are pretty large for FX once you get past 50mm. Relative for the lenses built for m4/3 and smaller sensors, that some folks are gravitating to for travel, special purposes. there's a big penalty to pay , however, for being imprecise around here.:) sure, there are reasonable lenses for FF.
I see probably 30 or more pro and semipro photographers shooting handheld on an average day, from family portraits and weddings to landscape and city documentation etc. etc. The typical zoom lenses on these DSLRs (it's rare to see a non-DSLR) range from 6 to 12 inches long and maybe 3 inches in diameter at the widest point. It might be that most of these cameras are APS-C, but some of them are full-frame. It looks to me, from about 10 years watching these people, that they're using the same lenses regardless of their sensors, so the zoom range would be greater with the half-frame sensors. The big-camera users - full-frame, extended battery, bigger lenses etc. - those are pretty much exclusively used for weddings and family portraits. The ones I see at the parks shooting foliage or wildlife, and the ones I see downtown shooting historic and cultural stuff are the smaller DSLRs with the lenses as I described. There are exceptions, but rarely.
 

rbelyell

All-Pro
May 14, 2013
88
NY Mtns
tbh, size (and ergonomics) was the reason i left slr's in the first place many years ago. FF M plus small high quality leica/zeiss glass is an ergonomic dream, if you dont mind manual focus. lately i tried out a really compact pentax dslr, the ks2, which is not only (relatively) quite small, but is waterproof, cheap and fast af. the fa ltd lens series is imo pretty comparable to leica/zeiss and are downright tiny for FF slr lenses. i,m very very happy with the pentax rig. i suggest slr/af fans check them out, esp as they just came out with an $1800 pro FF model, the k1, that is getting rave reviews.
 

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