Fuji ... or should I we wait ?

[Fabian Ovidiu]

Hi, my first time here and my first post. I don't own any Fujifilm camera, yet, but after a lot of research and careful study of the X-E1, and even X-Pro1, more and more I get a powerful urge to buy one. What really impresses me and draws me to this system is the OUTSTANDING image quality, I'n my opinion is really close to Full Frame DSLR, that's by far beyond any APS-C sensor at the moment, in terms of ISO performance, sharpness level and color accuracy, impressively small size and weight and the "manual" style of operation of aperture and shutter speed.

I currently own a humble Panasonic G2 which has served me courageously (we had some "dangerous" adventures that ended up with a lot of scratches on both of us) and, almost, without fail. But time has come to retire my camera and switch for a better one. I use it with, almost, only manual lenses (Revuenon 50mm f 1.8, Hanimar 135mm f 2.8 and Compact 70-210mm f 4.5-5.6) so manual focus and aperture control is something I got used to it (but not mastered it yet). But I love to control the aperture with a ring on the lens and it reminds me when I use to shoot film when I was a kid (but not much unfortunately).

Now the issue that I have: I don't find that necessary, or usefulness, of the hybrid OVF (due to inaccuracy of the frame lines and the lower quality of the EVF compared to X-E1) to go for the X-Pro1, and I could save some money with the X-E1. But there are some things that I would like from Fujifilm to do and/or address and please don't take this as an wining or talking ill of the camera, there are just honest opinions that, I think, would make this great camera even better:

*Why not make the top part of both X-E1 and X-Pro1 brass so it would make it even more classy, personalized and just beautiful to perfection ?

*Could it be possible to make the EVF a little bigger in size (not pixels), we know it's possible just look at how small Sony's NEX are and how big the EVF's are.

*Higher resolution on the, future, X-E2's LCD for better manual focus when magnifying, I don't think the cost would be that high since more and more entry level DSLR and MILC cameras have 921K 3" screens.

*Would you PLEASE put a tilt LCD on the back for better use on high and low angles, it wouldn't make the camera much more think then it is already, just look at the Sony's NEX and Olympus OM-D, they are really thin and with tilt screens

*I understand that Fujifilm want's the controls to be as simple as possible but at least make them more customizable, at least, so we can have more control on the settings of the camera, for example: is it really all that hard to make the 4 way directional buttons adjustable to some settings like: WB, ISO, Metering, AF, Drive Mode, Timer, Flash Control, Film Modes, Color Profiles, etc. There are so many option, so much opportunities here and they are waisted on a Macro Mode which is useless on X-E1 because of the dedicated, only, EVF. One Fun. button is just not enough in my opinion and the need to pick inside your nose to change the Drive Mode or to Playback your last image when using the EVF is just silly. I just hate all that waisted opportunity for more control to the photographer without taking his eye of the EVF.

*In the last several years there where major advances in the battery technology and the competition has better battery life with even smaller cameras. Fujifilm please fix this by putting a better battery in the camera and optimize your power consumption more because I can't possibly thing why the X-Trans sensor could consume much more power then the Sony NEX's or Samsung NX's with the same sensor size and smaller size body.

*I think this one would be really conflicting with other's opinion but I very rarely change the EV Comp. on my camera (always keep it at 1/3 on - for more speed and save highlights) and it would be genius to change the +/- 2 EV dial to an ISO one. I think that would be more useful but I highly doubt that will ever going to happen.

*Please make ISO 100 reachable in Auto ISO because even 1 stop of higher ISO would push the shutter speed beyond 1/4000 with the 35mm f 1.4 in daylight and overexpose the shot without resorting to dial down the EV and/or use ND filters. And it would be nice to be able to set a minimum shutter speed for Auto ISO at each increments for better control over sharpness since IS is available only to zoom lenses.

*It would be nice if they, Fujifilm, up the game at recording movies. It's definitely a shot first film later kind of camera but I don't think it would cost to much for them to build a better movie recording option even if it's not at the level of Panasonic GH2/3 or Canon 5D Mark II/IIIm think like more frame rate options, better AF (it's possible, just look at the Micro Four Thirds capabilities), less rolling shutter effect, higher bitrate, more control of the settings in and out of recording, etc.

That's about it of what I can think of at 1 in the morning. Some of this thinks can be solved in a firmware update, some in the next generation of cameras, but it doesn't hurt to ask them, if we can then we should. Don't get me wrong I do like the X-E1, a lot, enough to make me buy one this summer, if nothing will appear, at least, in the rumor mill. I'm not bothered by sluggish AF (I focus manually on my landscape and macro shots) or by lack of lens options (give me high quality/performance with useful FL range and I will adapted at what I have).

What are the thing that you would like/need to make you want/buy a Fujifilm X camera or just want to see in the next generation to make a great camera into a legendary one.

 

[CaptZoom]

I'm not trying to insult you with what follows; I mean it seriously. I don't think the X-E or X-Pro are the cameras you're looking, at least not these first generation ones. Try to hold on to your Panny until Fuji announces the next generation of these cameras before you make a decision. It seems you'll be frustrated with the current models and will be wanting the gen 2 models especially if they address some of your concerns.
-- -- -- --
As for your question:
I'm in a similar position to yours in that I do not own any Fuji products, but I find myself intrigued by them (the X100 series in particular). I've little interest in the X-Pro or the X-E (I'm quite happy with the interchangeable lens camera system that I have). However, if Fuji were to do three things (two of which are unlikely), I'd consider Fuji interchangeable system:
1) Full Frame sensor calibrated for rangefinder lenses
2) Rangefinder focusing system
3) Ability to take M/LTM lenses
These are my preferences, yours and those of others will vary (and there's nothing wrong with that).
The Fuji X100 series on the other hand really really peaks my interest. My reasons (in no particular order):
1) The rendering. I'm not talking about image quality in the technical sense (though if measured by high ISO capture, Fuji's near the top), rather the subjective quality. The sensor/lens combo renders in a unique way that I find appealing. I don't know how to quantify this.
2) The simplicity. I like dedicated tactile controls and despise modal buttons (Canon's interface style where one button controls two variables depending on which dial is used). Fuji's done the right thing in keeping the user interface perfected over the last 100 years of portable photography: aperture control on the lens, dedicated shutter dial, traditional shutter release. They've also ingeniously and simplistically incorporated modern controls: dedicated exposure comp dial, programmable function button in close proximity to the shutter release (so that ISO can be easily controlled), and the introduction of the "Q menu" in the X100s. I'll add the fixed lens under simplicity as well.
With the X100 series, the only decisions you have to make are about framing. It's pretty easy to pre-visualize the 35mm frame (you'll be surprised how quickly this skill is acquired). All you have to do is be alert and spot the opportune moments, and that's what really attracts me to the X100s. It isn't about capturing every moment, rather about capturing the right moment. Whether I succeed in this with the X100s, remains to be seen.

 

[pniev]

First of all, welcome!
Interesting points of view! Thanks for sharing. The x100s also becomes more and more appealing to me. The hybrid viewfinder, the small size and weight, the IQ, the simplicity and beauty are appealing for most trips. But...I love macro. So I will need an interchangeable set and will wait for the xpro2 which should not be too far away, if rumors are correct. Right now the ideal combi will be the 14mm, 35mm, 60mm macro, and the new telezoom. if Fuji would launch a 105mm macro that will replace the 60mm.

I wish fuji would launch a FF camera but it is unknown when that is going to happen. And why wait so long? Opportunities for nice shots will be missed.

I haven' t experienced the need for a tilt LCD yet. My DSLR's did not have one either and I prefer using the viewfinder.

CaptZoom: go for the x100s. It would be great to see your photos here!

Peter

 

[Fabian Ovidiu]

I to love macro, a third of the photos I took in the last 4 years are macro or really close-up shots, and believe me when I say that even tilt LCD (I have a tilt & swivel with G2) would help a LOT on macro shots since you are working, most of the time, at ground level. I shoot macro almost exclusively hand held, because it's easier and faster to change perspective then on tripod, and in awkward position it really helps to keep the camera steady and your back painless. The lack of macro options is not all that huge because you can adapt all lenses to Fujifilm's X mount and manual focus is the way for this type of photography and the lack of IBIS is, a bit, mitigated by the fact that high ISO is usable up to 1600-3200 (even further if you are willing) without big issues.

I really can't understand (and that's my fault) why such a huge need for a FF rangefinder-like camera from a company that is not as big as Canon-Nikon-Sony that might not be able to maintains two interchangeable systems with one that would cost huge amounts of money that only 5-10% people will be able to buy (Sony's RX1 won't be able to outsell any of it's SLT-s cameras because of it's price and ability to attract new customers like you're average Joe).

 

[Fabian Ovidiu]

I'm not trying to insult you with what follows; I mean it seriously. I don't think the X-E or X-Pro are the cameras you're looking, at least not these first generation ones. Try to hold on to your Panny until Fuji announces the next generation of these cameras before you make a decision. It seems you'll be frustrated with the current models and will be wanting the gen 2 models especially if they address some of your concerns.

Non taken. The idea that represent's Fujifilm with the X system is really appealing to me because of it's size and weight as a hole (which was the reason to dive into Micro Four Thirds) but with the IQ so good that surpasses my wish to go back to Pentax (the reason why Micro Four Thirds lost appeal to me, even with the IQ of the OM-D E-M5). I will hold on to my Panny but I get more and more annoyed by the noise even at lowest ISO and, almost, uselessness of high ISO and disappointing DR (the only faults I see in my camera right now).

-- -- -- --
As for your question:
I'm in a similar position to yours in that I do not own any Fuji products, but I find myself intrigued by them (the X100 series in particular).

I don't find all that useful a fixed lens camera no matter how good the IQ is, I'm always looking for more then one perspective on my subject of a shot be it at FL or POV.

I've little interest in the X-Pro or the X-E (I'm quite happy with the interchangeable lens camera system that I have). However, if Fuji were to do three things (two of which are unlikely), I'd consider Fuji interchangeable system:
1) Full Frame sensor calibrated for rangefinder lenses

Hard to sell at the price of build (beyond 2500$ in my opinion) and hard on a company that small for two interchangeable lens system that one cost lots of money and other huge loads of money. Don't get me wrong the idea tingles every fiber of my being but it doesn't seem feasible at this moment.

2) Rangefinder focusing system
3) Ability to take M/LTM lenses

You can adapt, almost, any lens made by mankind on a mirrorless camera if it covers the sensors size.

These are my presences, yours and those of others will vary (and there's nothing wrong with that).
The Fuji X100 series on the other hand really really peaks my interest. My reasons (in no particular order):
1) The rendering. I'm not talking about image quality in the technical sense (though if measured by high ISO capture, Fuji's near the top), rather the subjective quality. The sensor/lens combo renders in a unique way that I find appealing. I don't know how to quantify this.
2) The simplicity. I like dedicated tactile controls and despise modal buttons (Canon's interface style where one button controls two variables depending on which dial is used). Fuji's done the right thing in keeping the user interface perfected over the last 100 years of portable photography: aperture control on the lens, dedicated shutter dial, traditional shutter release. They've also ingeniously and simplistically incorporated modern controls: dedicated exposure comp dial, programmable function button in close proximity to the shutter release (so that ISO can be easily controlled), and the introduction of the "Q menu" in the X100s. I'll add the fixed lens under simplicity as well.

I love those options to, you know, but why not give your customer the ability to chose what and where for control and/or use every available button to you for controlling your camera. And it would still keep it simplistic and ingenious.

With the X100 series, the only decisions you have to make are about framing. It's pretty easy to pre-visualize the 35mm frame (you'll be surprised how quickly this skill is acquired). All you have to do is be alert and spot the opportune moments, and that's what really attracts me to the X100s. It isn't about capturing every moment, rather about capturing the right moment. Whether I succeed in this with the X100s, remains to be seen.

 

[Iansky]

Wow,

Some interesting points and expectations here.

As the owner of both MU43 & X100 (+Full frame DSLR), I find myself using the two smaller formats most and if pure IQ is the goal then the X100 delivers in spades and provides a wonderful totally silent tactile experience in the process.

If small and fast is the aim and good IQ then my Mu43 (GX1+25/14-45/45-175) delivers, it is faster to focus, solid and well made but does not offer the same nostalgic feel as the Fuji.

I do not see Fuji adding brass top & bottom plates a la Leica as the sourcing / manufacture / coating is costly let alone the added weight, I find the weight of my X100 to be perfect and can carry it all day without inconvenience / discomfort, it is also robust and I found that out last year when I fell down some steps and the camera bounced down - result, two very small & hardly noticeable scratches on the top cover and a camera that continues to work perfectly a year later - strong it certainly is.

Fuji have admitted they are looking at both Full Frame sensors and processors to support them but, I suspect it will be a while before we see them manifest themselves in a finished camera due to cost and the need to rework lenses (they may introduce another DSLR that can use other lenses from the "Big Ones" to save cost). Any Full Frame will be expensive and due to current global markets and the growing success of the Xtrans models, I do not see them doing anything that could impact their current success until times improve.

I personally am looking at possibly upgrading my X100 to the 100s later this year as for me and what I shoot it would be a very viable option.

Now with the launch of the X100s is a good time to get into Fuji ownership as you can pick up a X100 for very good prices so it may be worth considering so you have a user camera rather than sitting and speculating about what may be/what you want (not meant in any sarcastic or nasty way), get a Fuji feel the love and enjoy the quality.

Good luck

 

[Tdp]

That seems to be a lot of things you want changed before you consider buying a camera, perhaps it is not for you?

 

[Fabian Ovidiu]

That seems to be a lot of things you want changed before you consider buying a camera, perhaps it is not for you?

It's not like it will change the camera for the worst or make it the opposite of what it is/represents (ok, maybe the EV dial but that's not all that important) just improve for the better of everyone.

And the thing is that it may be not for me, at the moment, but the system is definitely what I want and need because Olympus/Panasonic are small/compact and very good lens selection but not so good DR and high ISO performance, Samsung NX have very small body with very good sensor with excellent sharpness and lenses, not to mention very cheap, and some nice gimmicks, WiFi, but limited accessories options, Samsung only, except Bower/Rokinon/Samyang/Vivitar, lenses close system and disappointing high ISO performance and speed performance operating the cameras, Sony NEX are compact and small with nice gimmicks also but the lens range are a bit disappointing in size, type and price (more so then even Samusng NX) and the sensors are never optimized for there best possible potential (like Nikon and Pentax has done with the D7000/7100 & Pentax K-5/5 II) and even thou it's good it's not all that impressive compared to OM-D and/or Fujifilm X-Trans (rendering colors, DR, high ISO performance, sharpness).

It may look like I'm nitpicking everyone here but all I did is look for the best system for me and Fujifilm gives me the best IQ and fun/enjoyment factor of them all even thou it doesn't have the best body in the market right now.

When I jumped from Pentax K200D to Panasonic G2 I did so without loosing much IQ but gaining a lot of direct controls option (which I found annoyingly lacking on Pentax K200D) and the very useful (for me) EVF and tilt & swivel LCD plus very low wight (G2 + kit lens weights less then K200D body alone). But I started to feel the lack of high ISO performance (ISO 1600 max and even then I have to do a lot of noise reduction and sacrifice sharpness) and even at ISO 100 noise creeps up if I trie to sharpen even to 25 in LR but I don't want to loose the small size and weight (the reason I'm not going back to DSLR). So I want good DR at base ISO (at least 13 stops) for my landscape shots (about 33% of my total photos I made so far), good sharpness on ISO 100-1600 for my macro shots (33%) and excelent ISO performance at 1600, good at 3200 and usable at 6400 for my night shots (33%) and all of my shots since I prefer to work with natural light and I very rarely use flash.

What would you recommend for me then ?

 

[CaptZoom]

I don't want to side track this thread, as I'm interested in the thread topic hence the brevity of my responses.

Non taken. The idea that represent's Fujifilm with the X system is really appealing to me because of it's size and weight as a hole (which was the reason to dive into Micro Four Thirds) but with the IQ so good that surpasses my wish to go back to Pentax (the reason why Micro Four Thirds lost appeal to me, even with the IQ of the OM-D E-M5). I will hold on to my Panny but I get more and more annoyed by the noise even at lowest ISO and, almost, uselessness of high ISO and disappointing DR (the only faults I see in my camera right now).

__

I don't find all that useful a fixed lens camera no matter how good the IQ is, I'm always looking for more then one perspective on my subject of a shot be it at FL or POV.

We all have different needs. It's a wonderful time to be a photographer with a plethora of choices available to fulfill any and all needs.
__

Hard to sell at the price of build (beyond 2500$ in my opinion) and hard on a company that small for two interchangeable lens system that one cost lots of money and other huge loads of money. Don't get me wrong the idea tingles every fiber of my being but it doesn't seem feasible at this moment.

Sensors are getting cheaper. Is there any technical reason Fuji can not use the X mount for FF lenses? Though a smaller market, FF is a viable and profitable segment of the whole market. I really hope Fuji chooses to compete here.
__

You can adapt, almost, any lens made by mankind on a mirrorless camera if it covers the sensors size.

Indeed almost any lens can be adapted to work in most mirrorless cameras, however unless the sensor is calibrated for lenses with tiny flange distances (ie rangefinder lenses) all sorts of anomalies start occurring towards the edges of the frame (especially true for wide angle lenses). Rangefinder lens perform optimally on the Leica M series and the Ricoh module designed for this purpose. Indeed Fuji has done something similar with its X100 series. Look up micro-lenses on digital sensors for more info.
__

I love those options to, you know, but why not give your customer the ability to chose what and where for control and/or use every available button to you for controlling your camera. And it would still keep it simplistic and ingenious.

So long as it doesn't adversely affect the performance, I see no problem with it.

 

[Tdp]

Since no camera in this world is perfect, you should determine the one (or two) thing the most important to you and get a camera that gives you that one thing, then work around/ignore the imperfections.

Based off the cameras I have used, I think the EM5 or it's eventual successor may be something you might like.

 

[Fabian Ovidiu]

I like keeping people interested and talking about interesting and useful topics.

Looking at the price of Sony RX1 (2800$ on B&H) it's definitely not cheap, yet, but there might be hope in the future, specially after the price of FF DSLR droped under 200$ with Nikon D600 and Canon 6D. There is a market for something like that but at a price beyond 2000$ it's close to niche market because only very enthusiast or professional can afford and can justify a price like that. Even if the technology would be or is there the main barrier is market a product that most of us want and can afford and it just isn't there yet.

I don't know any technical reasons (because I'm not a scientist) why Fujifilm couldn't or wouldn't make a make a FF X mount system but one thing I'm shore is that for primes it would be small and light weight enough to be feasible but not for zooms, so unless Fujifilm want's to go back to the bulky S Pro body it will going to be a prime only FF X mount system with the current or near future technology (unless there will be breakthroughs in miniaturisation and/or new and better optical formulas).

To make such a good calibration with, lets say, Leica M lenses Fujifilm will need to make there system more like the Leica M's specs of the rangefinder cameras and lenses and then build up there lenses close to that because there are variations in there mounting technology (from flange distance to the position of the photons on the sensor to better absorb the light from the edges of the lenses to maximize sharpness). I can't think a good reason enough why Fujifilm would build a sensor and/or a camera to be more compatible and give higher IQ with an adapted lens then there natives one since the business of every manufacturer of cameras want you to but there product not others and then adapt to them, it's not in there interest even if it would make a hole community of photographers have orgasm at such a prospect. And I can't find a good enough reason (unless you have loads of money or you have very very high expectation on the IQ of your shots) to buy a 5000$ (and not even the most expensive one) Leica M lens and mount it on Fujifilm 2000-2500$ (just a approximation on the first generation FF mirrorless rangefinder-like camera).

 

[CaptZoom]

Mirrorless is key regarding sensor calibration. If Fuji introduces a non-SLR type FF, then they will have deal with micro-lenses on sensor or some other solution to the problem. This is something they're already doing with the X100 series.
There are plenty of fine LTM lenses available that are not made by Leica. People will continue to purchase Fuji branded lenses for autofocus, especially when compared to the cost of Leica RF lenses (which are not AF). And lastly, why wouldn't you want to use the best possible lens you can afford especially considering that unlike camera bodies lenses do not rapidly depreciate (and in some cases, appreciate) in value.

In any case, it seems this thread is going off topic and I'm genuinely interested in hearing reasons people here opted for Fuji cameras.

I like keeping people interested and talking about interesting and useful topics.

Looking at the price of Sony RX1 (2800$ on B&H) it's definitely not cheap, yet, but there might be hope in the future, specially after the price of FF DSLR droped under 200$ with Nikon D600 and Canon 6D. There is a market for something like that but at a price beyond 2000$ it's close to niche market because only very enthusiast or professional can afford and can justify a price like that. Even if the technology would be or is there the main barrier is market a product that most of us want and can afford and it just isn't there yet.

I don't know any technical reasons (because I'm not a scientist) why Fujifilm couldn't or wouldn't make a make a FF X mount system but one thing I'm shore is that for primes it would be small and light weight enough to be feasible but not for zooms, so unless Fujifilm want's to go back to the bulky S Pro body it will going to be a prime only FF X mount system with the current or near future technology (unless there will be breakthroughs in miniaturisation and/or new and better optical formulas).

To make such a good calibration with, lets say, Leica M lenses Fujifilm will need to make there system more like the Leica M's specs of the rangefinder cameras and lenses and then build up there lenses close to that because there are variations in there mounting technology (from flange distance to the position of the photons on the sensor to better absorb the light from the edges of the lenses to maximize sharpness). I can't think a good reason enough why Fujifilm would build a sensor and/or a camera to be more compatible and give higher IQ with an adapted lens then there natives one since the business of every manufacturer of cameras want you to but there product not others and then adapt to them, it's not in there interest even if it would make a hole community of photographers have orgasm at such a prospect. And I can't find a good enough reason (unless you have loads of money or you have very very high expectation on the IQ of your shots) to buy a 5000$ (and not even the most expensive one) Leica M lens and mount it on Fujifilm 2000-2500$ (just a approximation on the first generation FF mirrorless rangefinder-like camera).