Pentax Pentax K10D or K200D?

mike3996

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I am currently looking to get another Pentax body next to my KP. I am definitely going to go for a low-budget option this time.

Because Pentax CCD cameras are often lauded, I can kill two birds with one stone here and get me a low-budget Pentax with a CCD sensor.

In particular I've narrowed it down to two most interesting candidates: K10D and K200D. These two can be had around 80-100 € from eBay. Not exactly as cheap as they can go in some garage sales but not astronomically expensive either.

[Question A] I see the major difference between these two is that the K10D is an enthusiast/pro camera with a pentaprism and the K200D is a [good] entry-level camera with a pentamirror and 100g less weight. Then one uses batteries and the other operates on AA batteries. Anything other notable I should maybe consider?

[Question B] I am not averse to the 6-megapixel CCD Pentaxes either, but they command higher prices and I'm not convinced. You can try to convince me if you like.

[Question C] if we relax on the budget and forget about CCD, we can get K5 bodies for 200 €. Any comments to/fro? :)
 
Having had both the K10 and the K5, I would go for the K5. It is more capable and permits micro adjustments for lens focus; the K10 does not allow the later. I always shot Raw with both and found no real difference in the sensor color quality. Although I had no problems with the K10, the K5 is very durable.
 
Haven’t shot with the 10, but have the K200d and think it’s a great little camera. Always surprised with the quality of the output. I have a lot of CCD sensor cameras, but this one is my largest at 10mp, and it’s quite nice.
 
It is more capable and permits micro adjustments for lens focus; the K10 does not allow the later.
Well this is good to know!

I made a brief inquiry into the internets.

K200D has this legendary "Debug mode" that apparently allows AF fine tune. This same mode is famously used to convert SDM lenses to screwdrive focusers.

I think I found reports about K10D allowing the same trick.
 
Some differences I have spotted:
  • K10D has TAv mode, K200D doesn't.
  • K10D uses LI-50 battery, K200D uses AA batteries
  • K200D: marginally faster to start (per DPR timings)...
  • ...but K10D is clearly faster to wake up from sleep
  • K10D is also eq or clearly faster in all image playback operations
  • K10D is slightly faster at burst shooting: 3.1 fps vs 2.7
Not much. The timing numbers sure favor the K10D suddenly. But the battery issue is also sadly causing a headache. What will LI-50 batteries cost, and in how bad shape is the one I'd be getting with a used camera from 2006? Using rechargeables in the K200D is not given either. I've read reports that it won't really like the lower-voltage charge of the rechargeables.

I see the lowest eBay price within EU for K200D to be around 70 €, and lowest for K10D is hovering at 100 €. Include a possible battery hassle and we're suddenly looking at 70€/140€ -- a doubling of price shouldn't be nothing! :)
 
I have a K100d but, back in 2011, it started having issues with rechargeable AA's requiring non rechargeable Lithium batteries instead. I used that as an excuse to upgrade to a K7 & found the Li50 battery much better. The pentaprism viewfinder was also a big improvement in low light.
I'd go for the 10D based on this.
 
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[Question A] I see the major difference between these two is that the K10D is an enthusiast/pro camera with a pentaprism and the K200D is a [good] entry-level camera with a pentamirror and 100g less weight. Then one uses batteries and the other operates on AA batteries. Anything other notable I should maybe consider?
The experience is different. The K10D has much more well laid out buttons than the K200D but, according to Pentax Forums, the K200D has the best CCD IQ amongst all CCD Pentax cameras. If you wish to have dual control wheels, the K10D is recommended.

[Question B] I am not averse to the 6-megapixel CCD Pentaxes either, but they command higher prices and I'm not convinced. You can try to convince me if you like.
They are more expensive because of their rarity and compactness. According to some, though, they are the closest to film but that's almost personal preference.

[Question C] if we relax on the budget and forget about CCD, we can get K5 bodies for 200 €. Any comments to/fro? :)
The K-5 is already a different beast. It has the sport metal chassis that it got from the K-7 and the AF motor is already on another level. It was released in 2010 but many Pentax professionals still use it. You will be able to store AFFA values for up to a number of lenses. When the body detects the lens, it automatically applies the AFFA value.

K200D has this legendary "Debug mode" that apparently allows AF fine tune. This same mode is famously used to convert SDM lenses to screwdrive focusers.
Yup, that debug mode is partially open and can do a lot of things. Even the K-3 III's debug mode is pretty open. Well, at least, it shows some subject recognition values.

I think I found reports about K10D allowing the same trick.
Yes, the debug mode trick is similar to the K10D's.

For what it’s worth, my k200d happily runs off of rechargeable AAs.
NiMH batteries used to have a problem but now, they are just much more reliable. My 2300 mAh Eveready batteries can shoot up to 770 exposures in a single charge using the screw-driven DA 18-55mm WR. We also have higher-end AA-sized lithium-ion ones that are easier to manage and with higher capacities. I haven't tried them yet. The reliability depends on whether the manufacturer uses Japanese cells or cells from somewhere else.
 
Wish I had k10 samples to show, but as I mentioned, I’m very impressed with the IQ and colors off the k200 -
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The problem as I see it is, most of the Pentaxes you mention on your relatively short list, are (almost) all beautifully built cameras, with a very very nice "in-hand" feel, and all are capable of taking relatively superb pictures. Among my best images over the years, were a handful taken with a K200d + a DA21mm prime, of which I had a superb copy. Years later, I got equally superb images from a KP with the same lens. (Yes, I know you are currently not a 'fan' of the KP, but for me, its OVF was a clear step-up from that of my K200ds, and given my obsession with viewfinders, that factor was important to me.) Further complicating the conversation, I would also recommend the K-5iis - the first Pentax to physical remove the camera's internal AA filter, I believe - and one whose OVF was at least as good as that of my former K200ds and my KP and (this is an extremely subjective impression), as good or better than the OVF's of my friends' K20ds. I only had the K-5 iis briefly, due to a serious problem with the mode dial the seller had failed to disclose, so I sent it back -- but in my brief period using it, I found it to be both enjoyable and insanely capable.

All of which begs the obvious question of whether the older and excellent Pentaxes with CCD sensors are indeed 'better' than their more modern siblings - and for me there is no one answer to what is an intriguing dilemma. Having gotten great images with both my older K200ds and my newer KP (and briefly K5iis), I have to say I'm "on the fence" - both generations of cameras have great qualities. Or, to sidestep the question, sometimes it can boil down to having the right lens or lenses. My two favorite relatively modern digital Pentax lenses were both DA Primes (the DA21Ltd, and the tiny pancake DA40mm) - and, truth be told, I still miss both of them.

I think if I had to make the decision, I'd probably give the nod to the K10d, due to its slightly better (for my eyes at least) viewfinder.

Though, to further complicate the question, my own next Pentax body is probably going to be none of the above, but rather, an expensive and often trouble-plagued model: the rather small non-metal-bodied K-S2. I had one once and loved it and foolishly sold it. Its compact size fitted my hands nicely, I found its pentaprism OVF to be the equal of its larger, pricier siblings and, like some of my favorite later Pentaxes, it was a ground-breaker in removing the AA filter. I still don't understand why exactly I sold it (an irrational urge to simplify my photographic life, I'm afraid) - but it is a small camera which, as some say, punches far above its weight. And its compact dimensions and weight appealed (and still appeal) to me.

I'm looking forwards not merely to reading the next chapter in your search... but in seeing which Pentax you acquire and, more importantly, what you do with it. I'm still a serious fan of the different images you have posted here with your KP, Mike - I think, in your hands, Pentaxes somehow seem to push the photographic and visual envelopes in different and intriguing ways.
Really.
 
The front control dial on the K10 makes it worth getting over the K200D on its own, imo. Every dslr should have dual dials in my estimation, lol. Plus other bonus's on top of that. The K10 is a brilliant camera , but you'll want to shoot raw in my experience. I still own one.

I also own the K5. The rendering of that sensor is very different, it remains one of the great dynamic range sensors imo. To my eye, even with set white balance, the K10 renders warmer , the K5 cooler.

Both are fantastic photography tools .
 
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but rather, an expensive and often trouble-plagued model: the rather small non-metal-bodied K-S2.
You mean the smallest DSLR with IBIS, a flippy screen, a pentaprism and proper WR? It's smaller than the *ist D! I believe the plague you're mentioning is just the ABF and in the US, there are Pentaxians servicing it with either a Japanese solenoid or the latest revision found on the 2021 K-70 or the KF.

@mike3996, perhaps Ozeki Koki can help you with your decision. Auto-translate is good enough as the photos speak louder than him.

He is primarily a Pentaxian. He buys and reviews older digital cameras.
 
a DA21mm prime, of which I had a superb copy.


Every now and again I think I should buy one of the 24mp Pentax bodies and pair it with a few of the DA LTD primes. Even a K-70 with hinged LCD would do. In fact, for my all round use that's probably better than the fixed screen K-3's , though I'd love one of those too, lol.
 
I'm a bit busy with Christmas and all, but when I get a chance between Chrissy and New Year I'll dig out the K10 and K5 and shoot the same scene for the OP. At least then you'll have an idea of the ooc differences in their looks.
 
according to Pentax Forums, the K200D has the best CCD IQ amongst all CCD Pentax cameras
Yes indeed, I went ahead and navigated the noise charts and apparently K200D has a secondary gain stage at ISO 400, making it the better high-ISO camera of the two. Below ISO 400 they're equivalent.

What a dilemma to be choosing between these two greats. :D

What's great is that I can always get both if I'm feeling particularly inclined. I've paid more for a wrist strap than the K200D that I am looking at. And why not throw in the K5 for good measure? All three Pentaxes combined only cost half of the next-cheapest camera body on my GAS list so practically not much at all.

But I want to start slow and get just one.

K200d + a DA21mm prime, of which I had a superb copy. Years later, I got equally superb images from a KP with the same lens. (Yes, I know you are currently not a 'fan' of the KP--)
I studied your bus graveyard photos of 2019 that you'd taken with the combo. In addition to the wonderful stylistic aesthetic and composition, the pics have a technical quality I really haven't seen on my Pentax pics. Your copy is looking very good, indeed. I don't know if my 21ltd is (particularly) bad or is it the KP that restricts unleashing the potential. All I know I'd like to see the lens sing.

I'm looking forwards not merely to reading the next chapter in your search... but in seeing which Pentax you acquire and, more importantly, what you do with it. I'm still a serious fan of the different images you have posted here with your KP, Mike - I think, in your hands, Pentaxes somehow seem to push the photographic and visual envelopes in different and intriguing ways.
What a nice thing to say. Thank you for your heartwarming words. It means a lot! :care:

@mike3996, perhaps Ozeki Koki can help you with your decision. Auto-translate is good enough as the photos speak louder than him.
Wowzers the pics he's taken are sensational!

The front control dial on the K10 makes it worth getting over the K200D on its own, imo. Every dslr should have dual dials in my estimation, lol.
I'd say three dials (as seen on KP, K1, larger Panasonic cameras) is the golden standard that every camera should strive for. ;)

I'll dig out the K10 and K5 and shoot the same scene for the OP. At least then you'll have an idea of the ooc differences in their looks.
Looking forward to the pictures! :D And yeah, seriously no rush. I'm also on my way to a family gathering.

Continuing on that, maybe this is as good thread as any to wish all of you a peaceful Christmas time and may you spend it in good health and fortune.
 
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so, i finally remembered to charge up both cameras. I used the 35mm/2.4 on both bodies , hand held at f/4. Aperture priority. I'll note that the K10 chose 1/100 vs 1/125 on the K5, shot about 30 seconds apart.

Lets start with the SOOC jpegs from both.


k10D:

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K5


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The k5 looks more saturated and contrasty. It also deals better with the highlights , that 16mp sensor has fantastic dynamic range, even now 10+ years on. But the K10 looks a little more pastel in colour and this , to my eye, is fairly typical of the CCD sensors, they just deal with colour a bit differently.

Next, lets have a look at the DNG files with "standard" applied in DXO PL-6.

K10D :

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k5.


IMGP9504dxostandard.jpg
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And then, finally, with a few little adjustments made like microcontrast and unsharp mask. Both files had the same applied. But I also pulled the K10 file down 1/4 stop exposure to compensate for the slightly longer shutter speed and help protect the highlights in the yellow channel.


K10D


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K5



IMGP9504dxostandardadj.jpg
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Edit: Ok, just for interest i also ran both files as per above, but with 6000K , 0 Tint set as the white balance.

K10D



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k5.


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Now, I'm not going to pontificate on CCD vs Cmos here, this is purely so that someone who is debating getting one or the other can see the comparative files in pretty much identical circumstances. One thing i will state is that the K10D, from the moment it was released, demanded that you shoot raw for maximum details. The Jpeg engine was never considered terribly good. And for colour work, I thought the files fell apart above ISO 640, maximum. But what i should probably do at some point in run a high-iso file through DXO Deep Prime and see how they look.


Thinking back to when i was shooting both of these bodies , pre-mirrorless , as my main camera's, I always found the K5 a superior all-round camera and the sensor DR could be incredibly good. But I liked that both camera's rendered differently in terms of sensor, and sometimes the K10 would just produce an image that lept off the screen at you. For the prices they are now, you cant go wrong.
 
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And you may as well view these. Both sooc, on a small tripod with manual exposure set for both.



k10.


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k5.

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The main point of interest about these two is probably the White Balance choice each camera made. Vastly different. The K5 DNG is showing "as-shot" as 5874K, -20 tint. The K10 is 4895, +1.
 
It's quite amazing for me to note such a significant difference, which may of course be more pronounced in a portrait involving skin tones
 
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