Ricoh GR vs. Nikon Coolpix A - quick impressions

Oops, just posted this in a different thread, thinking it was this one:

Y'all should officially disregard anything I say about the Ricoh colors. I spent the morning shooting in Philly with both cameras and took some shots at a vegetable stand that makes me absolutely sure I just don't have the proper color profile for this camera yet. Bright oranges are dull pink, for example. There was a lot of this going around when the first samples showed up and folks quickly figured it out. I thought I'd added a new color profile for it, but evidently not the right one... I'm sure this is fixable somehow, some way, some day... I'm gonna try a few of those DNG files in Aperture and see what happens.

-Ray

Let us know how you fix this or what you discover Ray, thanks!
 
Well, I just opened the same files in Aperture and they look just as bad. I'm fairly sure its correctable (by someone with a lot better color sense than I've got), but it appears to be something coming out of the Ricoh wrong, if both Lightroom and Aperture are tripping over it. Here are the two most obvious examples:

Nikon (and basically reality):
View attachment 69916
Nikon Philly-160 by ramboorider1, on Flickr

Ricoh:
View attachment 69917
Ricoh Philly-354 by ramboorider1, on Flickr

Nikon:
View attachment 69918
Nikon Philly-162 by ramboorider1, on Flickr

Ricoh:
View attachment 69919
Ricoh Philly-355 by ramboorider1, on Flickr

-Ray
 
wow, that color is just wrong. Is your loaner a final production model? Remember when you were looking at the noise, for some reason when the GR's file was opened the chroma noise was turned off completely? I wonder if there is some flag in GR's firmware/raw that isn't set right so the color profile is not set correctly when opened with LR and now aperture.

Someone did comment that the color seems fine in RPP if I remember correctly.
 
I got one from the first batch of production models that went out from B&H. I know there's a fix because other raw processors (for sure it could have been RPP - i don't remember) were doing fine with the files. And I thought that Adobe had updated their stuff to support the GR, but maybe it was just ACR and hasn't made it over to Lightroom yet??? But I'm really surprised that Aperture has the exact same problem with these files. It would seem like they might also choke on them before supporting those DNG's specifically, but you'd think the issues would take on a somewhat different character. But its pretty much exactly the same thing...

-Ray
 
I'm not sure of your process Ray, but I know that I open my raw files in Lightroom. I tweak there using Nik and then i export-- it's set up to export as a Tiff file. When I open it in PSElements.. it looks fine and I can do whatever I want, re-sizing or cloning or sometimes just drop a copyright blurb on the image but it has happened that when I re-save the image, the color profile isn't saved properly and I end up with washed out images like you are showing with the Ricoh. I need, and why this doesn't happen for all images I am not sure, to change the color profile in photoshop. Then when the jpeg saves.. it's the proper color. So while I am sure you are far better than processing and such than I probably am, if you haven't yet checked, see what color profile you are saving in. I have changed mine to sRGB and they are fine. This is sans GR of course but just a general processing thing I've experienced.

Also, did the TCS guys have color problems with their GR? Might be worth asking them since they did the review and all.
 
And I thought that Adobe had updated their stuff to support the GR, but maybe it was just ACR and hasn't made it over to Lightroom yet???

AFAIK it's only ACR 8.1 RC that has the GR profile. Link is: Download Adobe Photoshop Camera Raw 8.1 Beta - Adobe Labs

There is both an ACR plug-in and a DNG converter. I just tried the DNG converter and pulled the converted DNG into Lightroom 4.4 - looks the same as the original DNG though, so maybe it doesn't really work doing it that way. Don't have Photoshop so I can't give that a try. I'm sure this will get sorted in the next LR 5 release.

-Thomas
 
I'm not sure of your process Ray, but I know that I open my raw files in Lightroom. I tweak there using Nik and then i export-- it's set up to export as a Tiff file. When I open it in PSElements.. it looks fine and I can do whatever I want, re-sizing or cloning or sometimes just drop a copyright blurb on the image but it has happened that when I re-save the image, the color profile isn't saved properly and I end up with washed out images like you are showing with the Ricoh. I need, and why this doesn't happen for all images I am not sure, to change the color profile in photoshop. Then when the jpeg saves.. it's the proper color. So while I am sure you are far better than processing and such than I probably am, if you haven't yet checked, see what color profile you are saving in. I have changed mine to sRGB and they are fine. This is sans GR of course but just a general processing thing I've experienced.

Also, did the TCS guys have color problems with their GR? Might be worth asking them since they did the review and all.

I'm sure it's a color profile thing, but I think it's a matter of the profile used by Lightroom (and Aperture) since these are just opened and processed in those programs as a first step. This was a commonly observed thing with files from the pre-production models and it was concluded it was a processor issue because some other processors handled the files just fine. Adobe has updated ACR for the GR, I presume successfully, but the fix evidently hasn't made it into Lightroom yet. The problem with Aperture I was unaware of.

In a way this is the downside of using DNGs as your raw format. It's a universal standard so anything will open them, but the manufacturers still need to work with the processors to make sure a particular camera's DNG is fully supported. With most cameras its can take a while before there's ANY raw support, once the camera folks and software folks work out the processing details. With DNG, you have raw support right away, but it can still take a while before you have GOOD raw support.

-Ray
 
Ray, is there any way you can upload the DNG if you don't mind, perhaps someone can figure out what's the problem (aRGB/sRGB)? Thanks.

Sure, these link should get you to both of them - let me know if there are any problems (I'm not that experienced with Google Drive):

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BzYbLKEAQf-lQ3JCOUlNUGVnbzg/edit?usp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BzYbLKEAQf-lVVdadWxjX0YxVDg/edit?usp=sharing

Looks like it shows you the image and you can download with the link in the upper left corner...

EDIT - well, isn't that just a kick in the pants - whatever Google is using to display the files is getting the colors right in its display copy! When you click on the links, the files look GREAT. But not so good in Lightroom or Aperture. So that either demonstrates its CLEARLY not the camera, OR maybe Google is just using a still embedded mini-jpeg for that issue????

-Ray
 
Ray, Thanks very much for the files. I am playing with them, and I am starting to wonder if this is due to the color temperature not recorded correctly in the "As shot" setting? So for example, if you open up the GR and A's file, do they show the same temperature in LR? And if you try to manually adjust them so they have the same temperature, are the color comparable afterwards? I can get the color to be somewhat similar to the A's output by the temperature adjustment, that's why I have this thought. Thanks again.
 
The GXR A12 modules were great in colour, albeit could oversaturate the red channel. Hopefully the issue with the GR just requires some tweaking of the colour profiles within the raw converters.
 
I've tried opening these raw dng's in rawtherapee 4.0.10 and the files look pretty normal using the "default" processing profile, almost the same as the google previews
 
I think the problem is LR 4 is reading the embedded profile and can't find the correct profile, even though ACR 8.1 beta is installed. I think LR 5 beta should be able to read it by default.
As Alessandro mentioned, if you open the file in CS6, the ACR 8.1 pop-up window will select the correct profile "Adobe Standard" and the colors will look correct.

The easy fix to get LR 4 to read it is to copy the Ricoh GR .dcp file to the correct location. I'm on a windows machine, ACR 8.1 installs to
"C:\ProgramData\Adobe\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles\Adobe Standard\" on OSX i think it installs to "Library/Application Support/Adobe/CameraRaw/CameraProfiles".
Copy "Pentax Ricoh GR Adobe Standard.dcp" file from the above direcotry to "C:\Users\[your username]\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles\" on windows or
"Macintosh HD/Users/[your username]/Library/Application Support/Adobe/CameraRaw/CameraProfiles/".

Restart lightroom and make sure you select "Adobe Standard" as your profile under Camera Calibration section.

The below is a screenshot with the correct profile selected, it definitely looks a lot better

gr-354-cc.jpg

gr-355-cc.jpg
 
The easy fix to get LR 4 to read it is to copy the Ricoh GR .dcp file to the correct location. I'm on a windows machine, ACR 8.1 installs to
"C:\ProgramData\Adobe\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles\Adobe Standard\" on OSX i think it installs to "Library/Application Support/Adobe/CameraRaw/CameraProfiles".
Copy "Pentax Ricoh GR Adobe Standard.dcp" file to "C:\Users\[your username]\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles\" on windows or
"Macintosh HD/Users/[your username]/Library/Application Support/Adobe/CameraRaw/CameraProfiles/".

Restart lightroom and make sure you select "Adobe Standard" as your profile under Camera Calibration section.

The below is a screenshot with the correct profile selected, it definitely looks a lot better

Strawhat 20, this is great. THANK YOU!!!

EDIT: Less great than I thought. See follow up below... The DCP file is already there but Lightroom doesn't seem to want to let us make use of it...

-Ray
 
Ray, Thanks very much for the files. I am playing with them, and I am starting to wonder if this is due to the color temperature not recorded correctly in the "As shot" setting? So for example, if you open up the GR and A's file, do they show the same temperature in LR? And if you try to manually adjust them so they have the same temperature, are the color comparable afterwards? I can get the color to be somewhat similar to the A's output by the temperature adjustment, that's why I have this thought. Thanks again.

They don't show the same default color temperature, but adjusting the Ricoh to the same temp as the Nikon doesn't do the job. I think the suggestion below from Strawhat20 is the ticket...

-Ray
 
I think the problem is LR 4 is reading the embedded profile and can't find the correct profile, even though ACR 8.1 beta is installed. I think LR 5 beta should be able to read it by default.
As Alessandro mentioned, if you open the file in CS6, the ACR 8.1 pop-up window will select the correct profile "Adobe Standard" and the colors will look correct.

The easy fix to get LR 4 to read it is to copy the Ricoh GR .dcp file to the correct location. I'm on a windows machine, ACR 8.1 installs to
"C:\ProgramData\Adobe\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles\Adobe Standard\" on OSX i think it installs to "Library/Application Support/Adobe/CameraRaw/CameraProfiles".
Copy "Pentax Ricoh GR Adobe Standard.dcp" file to "C:\Users\[your username]\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\CameraRaw\CameraProfiles\" on windows or
"Macintosh HD/Users/[your username]/Library/Application Support/Adobe/CameraRaw/CameraProfiles/".
Strawhat20,

I don't think this works for Lightroom.

The Mac "Library" is found under the main hard drive, not the individual user, so the path is just Macintosh HD/Library/Application Support/Adobe/CameraRaw/CameraProfiles....

Then under Camera Profiles there are two folders, one for "Adobe Standard" and one for "Camera". Within the "Adobe Standard" folder, there are individual profiles for the "Nikon Coolpix A Adobe Standard.dcp" and there is already another one for the "Ricoh GR.dcp", so the Ricoh GR.dcp file already seems to be where its supposed to be (although it doesn't contain the term "Adobe Standard" in its title. In the "Camera" folder are various cameras that have multiple profiles you can choose from. The Nikon A is included there and has a folder with DCP files for Camera Landscape, Camera Neutral, Camera Portrait, Camera Standard, and Camera Vivid. When processing a Nikon Coolpix A file in Lightroom, under "Camera Calibration" and then under "Profile", you can choose from "Adobe Standard" or any of the "Camera" profiles I just listed from the "Camera" folder.

The problem seems to be that when I open a Ricoh GR DNG file to process it, under "Camera Calibration" and then "Profile", I don't see "Adobe Standard" or any other options. I only get "Embedded" with no other options to choose from. I'm assuming this is because the file is a DNG file rather than a proprietary raw file and Lightroom must assume that the DNG file already has all of the color information "embedded". So there's no choice to choose the Adobe Standard profile that should then pull the profile from the Ricoh GR.dcp file in the "Adobe Standard" folder. The file is there, but the program doesn't seem to know how to use the information it contains. I even tried changing the name of the DCP file to "Ricoh GR Adobe Standard.dcp", restarted Lightroom and tried again, but it still only shows "embedded" as the only option.

So, any more thoughts. From ANYONE????

The solution seems so close, yet so far away...

-Ray
 
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