Sensor Size Does Matter

Streetshooter

Administrator Emeritus
Jul 12, 2010
Philly, Pa
I guess I'm hooked on the APS-C sensor. After many prints, I see a difference from my m43 files. It's a shame because m43 has great stuff and great potential but it'll never match the larger sensor. The GXR for me is a marriage of form, interface and sensor.
I'll be here for a long time. I sure do miss my Pen1 tho...
 

Travisennis

Regular
Jan 17, 2011
Streetshooter said:
I guess I'm hooked on the APS-C sensor. After many prints, I see a difference from my m43 files. It's a shame because m43 has great stuff and great potential but it'll never match the larger sensor. The GXR for me is a marriage of form, interface and sensor.
I'll be here for a long time. I sure do miss my Pen1 tho...
I agree, Don. I think m43 is the best system out there but I like APS-C sized sensors the best. When it comes to high ISO and dynamic range it definitely has an edge. I think a 12 to 16 megapixel APS-C sensor is really the sweet spot when it comes to size and performance.
 

krugorg

All-Pro
Sep 26, 2011
Minnesota USA
Kyle Krug
I guess I'm hooked on the APS-C sensor. After many prints, I see a difference from my m43 files. It's a shame because m43 has great stuff and great potential but it'll never match the larger sensor. The GXR for me is a marriage of form, interface and sensor.
I'll be here for a long time. I sure do miss my Pen1 tho...
I have definitely been following your GXR impressions thread with interest. I was looking at that one, along with the X100, pretty hard before I picked up my Pen. I figured that as a system, m4/3 was a good fit for me - the IBIS and faster glass would make up a lot of that sensor difference (especially for the newb photog here). It also seemed to me that, while the m4/3 sensors would never get to APS-C performance, they would also always allow slightly smaller lenses. It's a good tradeoff for my needs right now.
 

Andrewteee

All-Pro
Jul 8, 2010
I guess I'm hooked on the APS-C sensor. After many prints, I see a difference from my m43 files. It's a shame because m43 has great stuff and great potential but it'll never match the larger sensor.
I would agree and that is too bad, because m43 does have great stuff. I'd like to work more on my m43 files for printing because the EP3 and recent lenses work really well otherwise.

I wish the GXR had a 24mm and a "portrait" focal length. Then, done.
 

BBW

Administrator Emeritus
Jul 7, 2010
betwixt and between
BB
...
My point is that having the possibility of bringing often with me a sort of a compact camera, dissuades me from bringing a larger one even in the cases in which I could. I know that it prevents me from shooting some pictures, but allows me to shoot many others and this is welcome to me.
Of course, I agree that is just a point of view and I can understand who doesn't want to accept this sort of tradeoffs.

PS i'm sorry, but I notice only now that all of your posts are very old. I was mistaked by some confusion with European continental format for dates. However, I hope that my opinion is welcome.
Andy, there's absolutely nothing wrong with bringing up an older thread - there are many very worthwhile and thought provoking discussions that have slipped back down in time here...and most will remain very relevant. You picked a wonderful thread to revive!

I couldn't agree with you more about the possibilities that smaller compact cameras offer. The old saying "the best camera is the one you have with you" - or words to that effect - rings true for me. Recently I posted a thread about the iPhone being used by a journalist in Afghanistan https://www.photographerslounge.org/f16/iphone-journalists-camera-4623/ which illustrates your point exactly. Many thanks for bringing this discussion back up again, Andy.:2thumbs:
 

texascbx

Veteran
Jul 10, 2010
Canton Texas
Ricky
Rereading this I thought I would put in my two cents. Though I'm not an expert, I read a lot about photography. I don't believe everything I read.

I went to the Boo Benfit motorcycle rally early this month and I used my SLT-A33 with a Tamron 18-250. I took some good pics, but some are distorted by the lens. The 14Mp sensor did a good job though. I brought my neighbor, Chase, with me. He used my old Panasonic

G1 with the 14-45 lens and those images are just as good if not better than the Sony. He shot it on full auto all day and I made adjustments constantly on my Sony. It was sunny all day too so that had a lot to do with why the Panny did so well. Plus that little 14-45 lens must be a gem of a lens, especially with all the corrections the cam makes.
 
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AzPete

Veteran
Dec 24, 2010
Andy, older threads are for older people like Don, Billn, BB and the like. When they cant remember what was said back in the day, all they do is look it up and walla bing bam...there it is.
So no worries brother, youre doing good.
Pete
 
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BBW

Administrator Emeritus
Jul 7, 2010
betwixt and between
BB
Very interesting observations, Ricky.:th_salute:

Yeah, we "oldies" need to have memory holders. Though most of us women have excellent memories when it comes to some things.:biggrin:
 

Streetshooter

Administrator Emeritus
Jul 12, 2010
Philly, Pa
I have definitely been following your GXR impressions thread with interest. I was looking at that one, along with the X100, pretty hard before I picked up my Pen. I figured that as a system, m4/3 was a good fit for me - the IBIS and faster glass would make up a lot of that sensor difference (especially for the newb photog here). It also seemed to me that, while the m4/3 sensors would never get to APS-C performance, they would also always allow slightly smaller lenses. It's a good tradeoff for my needs right now.
I agree that m43 is the system to look at if size is the issue. I have nothing against it at all. For me, I work in a semi-methodical way. I mean, I walk the streets or work an event and wait for my image to appear. At that point, I can't tolerate any intrusion from the camera at all. The GXR does just that for me. The X100 does it also but I was forced to sell it off.
The GXR allows me to make changes on the camera without looking at it. The IQ speaks for itself.
I had a very similar experience with the Pen1. It was a marvelous camera with the 17. So, I am into the APS-C sensor because of the way the cameras render the light and the way the sensor presents the files.

I'm not saying anything is better than anything else, that's just pure rubbish. I'm only stating that the GXR does it for me in ways other camera don't.
The size is almost like m43 and in fact with either A12 unit, it's smaller....
 

krugorg

All-Pro
Sep 26, 2011
Minnesota USA
Kyle Krug
I'm not saying anything is better than anything else, that's just pure rubbish. I'm only stating that the GXR does it for me in ways other camera don't.
The size is almost like m43 and in fact with either A12 unit, it's smaller....
Size does seem to be a huge advantage of the GXR module system, especially against the APS-C competition. Not ready just yet to give you the advantage over my E-P3 with 20 or 14mm pancake, but you may be right, or it is probably close enough to not matter. Heck, the Oly 12 and 45 also feel pretty dinky... must be the weight and diameter that gives this impression.

I do keep coming back to the X100 and GXR product pages to see what is new (and lust a bit). I am interested to see what the new Fuji ILC is all about and, especially because I love the Ricoh philosophy, I am curious what Pentax/Ricoh does with GXR (rumors of another APS-Cish CSC, maybe from the Pentax side)...
 

Streetshooter

Administrator Emeritus
Jul 12, 2010
Philly, Pa
Ok, let's move past the IQ differences between formats.
For me, interface is the key after form. I thought that after 40+ years using M's... The X100 would give me that feeling back. It did. What I realized was that after many years in the digicam arena, I liked the screen.

The reason is this. Photos are a 2 dimensional object.
The screen presents it that way.
If you take a small print and hold it out in front of you... Then you see that object surrounding in 3D reality. The screen does the same thing.

So the X100 was on my hit list to leave the premises because the form no longer excites me.
The Pen 1 and the GF1 were my favorite cameras since my film days. The m43 format has it all going for it.
Making prints up to 11 x 14 image size, the difference is almost imperceptible from APS-C.
Almost.... Above that, there's no contest.
So I tell my people that come to me for photo therapy, lessons in another word...
Decide on output, then decide on the camera format.
If one is only ever doing screen work or smaller prints, it's all good.

I'm loving my GXR's but to be honost, the Pen3 and that 12mm .... Well... Some day...
I met a young couple at Occupy Philly. They were from Germany. They both had that outfit....
Very sexi indeed.
 
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krugorg

All-Pro
Sep 26, 2011
Minnesota USA
Kyle Krug
So I don't need to feel less-than-amateur when I compose without using a viewfinder? :2thumbs: Seriously, good stuff when I read more experienced photographers are okay with composing with the screen.

I purchased the EVF-2 with my E-P2. I've had it out of the box exactly once to try it out. I much prefer using the camera display, even in bright sunlight. It just seems more natural. Maybe it is because I have had so much recent P&S experience shooting this way, but somehow I feel like I am part of the action (not isolated) when I use the screen. I liked the way you describe the experience, shooter!
 
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Streetshooter

Administrator Emeritus
Jul 12, 2010
Philly, Pa
Kyle, your right on the money.
Using a screen lets you be an active observer.
Using a finder makes you a passive observer. There's a false sense of security with a finder. The camera covers your face. This can create an uneasy feeling when potential subjects see you.
So you are in a passive mode because you are hidden.
The screen makes you active in the scene. People can see your face. The threat dissipates rapidly.
Both methods work fine but the screen allows your frame to move in time and space with the flow of energy around you.
I'm an observer of life. I don't want to be a secret observer.

This screen thing goes back farther than finders. It goes back to the beginning of photography.
Kyle, you keep doing what your doing.
Your on it image wise and thought wise....

Time for you to leave grasshopper.....
 

BBW

Administrator Emeritus
Jul 7, 2010
betwixt and between
BB
Don, I do know what you mean about the format. However, I beg to differ when it comes to "using a finder makes you a passive observer". You clearly feel that it makes you a passive observer. I don't use it to block my face or to hide behind - I use it to see. Seriously, generally speaking it is not that easy for me to see a small sized screen. I do use solely the LCD sometimes, depending upon the scene. I feel very actively involved with my subject when using the viewfinder.

I really believe it is a matter of different strokes for different folks - including different subject matter and settings - not aperture or f stop...but location, location, and action or not, etc. Heck, after using that former NEX5 of yours, I fell for that tilt up screen! I guess there will always be options out there for all of us...and maybe eventually one camera that meets everyone's individual needs?

Right now I am in the diehard "must have the aperture ring and F stop controls" as on the X100. Those two "normal" to me controls make the biggest difference to me. So that's a big part of the format for me. Chances are in real life I could be swayed...but for now I'm a happy camper.
 

Streetshooter

Administrator Emeritus
Jul 12, 2010
Philly, Pa
BB, being a passive or active observer is not about your feelings. It's about the subjects feelings.
It's how the subject sees you not how you see the subject.

Think about it this way. Your making photos at a party.
Your subject sees the camera and not your face/eyes.
The screen allows the subject comfort by having eye contact.
 

BBW

Administrator Emeritus
Jul 7, 2010
betwixt and between
BB
I know what you mean, Don. Fortunately, if I'm in circumstances that make me feel that someone will be intimidated I can use the screen. What happened before the LCD?
 

retow

All-Pro
Jul 24, 2010
I would agree and that is too bad, because m43 does have great stuff. I'd like to work more on my m43 files for printing because the EP3 and recent lenses work really well otherwise.

I wish the GXR had a 24mm and a "portrait" focal length. Then, done.
Oh it has, with the m-module:wink: I consider GXR-M the best MF/ZF compact large sensor system and the EP3 with the new primes the best for AF. The question is where does this leave the X100 as it is neither setting the AF nor the MF gold standard.
 

Streetshooter

Administrator Emeritus
Jul 12, 2010
Philly, Pa
Back on topic, not that we're off anyway......
I remember when I got my 5D. I bought "L" glass and thought that this was as good as it gets. It was, considering the lower cost to the Mark series. Then after many images with it, I started to notice that something wasn't right. I mean I couldn't put my finger on it but I was seeing something I couldn't describe. Then I had a moment and realized that what was troubling me was... the images looked sterile. I don't mean boring, Lord knows I never ever made a boring image in my life...well maybe sometimes but we need not discuss that.

The images just looked too clean. I started to investigate how to get some grit in the files but that was counter productive to the camera and the FF format.
Just as I was getting ready to shoot the camera with my 1911, m43 came on the scene. After a long spell with m43, I realized I had the same problem but in reverse. I couldn't get what I wanted under control.
The Nex 5 showed what that sensor could do. That camera with good glass is very hard to beat.
Now with the GXR, I, we have many options. Luckily, I have the 2 A12 units and that gives me AF when I want it. The APS-C sensor is a happy region for me to work. It has all the good stuff from the smaller m43 and the larger FF cameras.

retow, the X100 is one heck of a camera. It's really magic if one surrenders to it. There is no Gold Standard in any modern day camera. One has to find an area that one is comfortable in and work it. The camera of choice will either help or hinder your progress. The sensor size is relevant only to output.
For me, it's the APS-C because I love the way it can produce a clean grit that I can control.

I sold a lot of work from the Pen 1 and the GF1. It's all good, we just have to decide what we can or can not live with......personally, I can't deal with too much other than where I'm at because that's where I am and I belong. Click!
 

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