Feedback Should we have separate Leica and L-mount threads?

[pdk42]

It seems we just have one top-level gear thread that lumps together all the Leica and Leica mounts (M, LTM, L, R). I don't think this is helpful for L-mount people. L mount is a lot more than Leica and many (probably most) L-mount users won't be Leica users. I think we should have separate top-level threads for "pure" Leica (M, LTM, R) and another for L-mount. Of course, Leica L mount users can post in whichever they feel most comfortable, but I think many Panasonic and Sigma users feel that posting in the "Leica" forum doesn't seem right.

L-mount users - what are your thoughts?

 

[albertk]

Totally agree.
I have a Lumix and Sigma.
But also a M-L adapter from an odd brand and one with a window from Leica.
So the Leica lens is just a passing visitor. It just has a totally different fingerprint, not enough to lump the whole under Solms or Wetzlar.

 

[pdk42]

How can we raise this with the mods?

 

[Brian]

It seems we just have one top-level gear thread that lumps together all the Leica and Leica mounts (M, LTM, L, R). I don't think this is helpful for L-mount people. L mount is a lot more than Leica and many (probably most) L-mount users won't be Leica users. I think we should have separate top-level threads for "pure" Leica (M, LTM, R) and another for L-mount. Of course, Leica L mount users can post in whichever they feel most comfortable, but I think many Panasonic and Sigma users feel that posting in the "Leica" forum doesn't seem right.

L-mount users - what are your thoughts?

As a Leica Thread Mount user- it is anything but a Pure Leica Mount. It's like calling the M42 mount a Pure Pentax mount.

I have Leica, Canon, Nicca, Yashica, Tanack, Minolta, Zorki, and Fed camera bodies all using LTM. I have many more lenses for LTM. I post all of those here.

With M-Mount, there is Leica, Pixii, Konica, Ricoh, Minolta, Cosina/Voigtlander, and Zeiss Ikon bodies. Many more lenses than that.

Back when we had "Leicaplace", there would have been separate subforums. There was a lot of consolidation.

From the L Mount Website, "The L-Mount Alliance is a partnership between Leica Camera, SIGMA, Panasonic, Ernst Leitz Wetzlar GmbH and, more recently, DJI. Its aim is to provide photographers with one unified lens mount standard. Developed by Leica Camera, the L-Mount allows photographers to combine lenses and cameras made by the four Alliance partners. A new era of creative freedom has begun."

The "L" is for Leica, just like the L in LTM. Does not stop me from posting pictures taken with my Canon P with a Zeiss Sonnar on this forum.

 

[rayvonn]

I note a lot of people that for whatever reason, don't seem to see this as straightforward as Paul. Over on the other Leica forum site, they've changed from an initial position where posting a shot with, say, an A7 and an adapted Zeiss M mount lens or a S1 and a Sigma lens was a no-no, to now being accepting of that. There does seem to be an acceptance that Panasonic and Leica are these days certainly in many ways connected. Doesn't really bother me either way.

 

[Brian]

Back when Amin combined the forums under this one, he did away with the many subforums under each.

Cameraderie

Photography forum community for sharing photos, information, and discussing camera gear. 📷

cameraderie.org

The Leica forum is organized like the others. Top-Level forum with a Showcase subforum. The forums are no longer organized by the mount and type in each.
For example- Nikon has F-Mount, Z-Mount, S-Mount, "Nikon One", and fixed-lens. It's all Nikon with a showcase forum.

If the Leica forum is going to be re-organized with Subforums for each mount, L, LTM, M, R, and Fixed-Lens- then the same should be done for each of the top-level forums. Nikon, Canon, u43, etc. Otherwise- use the Tags to find threads of interest.

 

[Brian]

From 2013, Leicaplace. All of the forums for Leicaplace and the other forums were collapsed when merged here.
Note that the structure was along the lines of Mount, not brand- even under LEICAplace.

 

[William Lewis]

My primary LTM lens these days is a Canon 50/1.4 when I'm not using Voigtlander, Nikon, Minolta, FSU, and of course, Leica

There isn't anything "pure" about M mount either, even if it's less common than LTM was (I have Chinese and Japanese made M mount lenses for example.)

I really don't see any need to break out L mount, especially since I'm more likely to learn about and see work with L mount lenses this way.

 

[pdk42]

As a Leica Thread Mount user- it is anything but a Pure Leica Mount. It's like calling the M42 mount a Pure Pentax mount.

I have Leica, Canon, Nicca, Yashica, Tanack, Minolta, Zorki, and Fed camera bodies all using LTM. I have many more lenses for LTM. I post all of those here.

With M-Mount, there is Leica, Pixii, Ricoh, Minolta, Cosina/Voigtlander, and Zeiss Ikon bodies. Many more lenses than that.

Back when we had "Leicaplace", there would have been separate subforums. There was a lot of consolidation.

From the L Mount Website, "The L-Mount Alliance is a partnership between Leica Camera, SIGMA, Panasonic, Ernst Leitz Wetzlar GmbH and, more recently, DJI. Its aim is to provide photographers with one unified lens mount standard. Developed by Leica Camera, the L-Mount allows photographers to combine lenses and cameras made by the four Alliance partners. A new era of creative freedom has begun."

The "L" is for Leica, just like the L in LTM. Does not stop me from posting pictures taken with my Canon P with a Zeiss Sonnar on this forum.

If you go to the top-level "gear" forum here, there's mention of Nikon, Canon, Sony, Fuji, M43, and then "Leica and Leica Mounts" and "Other". When I first got my S5 I went searching into "Other" and "Alternatives" for somewhere relevant before I found the "Leica" forum. For the newer users of this gear, the Leica link is clearly there, but I think many consider Panasonic as the senior partner, not Leica.

Now of course, I do realise that L mount originated with Leica, but I think with the momentum behind L-mount, it would make sense to spin off another top-level sub-forum for it. Given that most of the lenses and most of the bodies in L-mount are not made by Leica, and that most people with L-mount gear won't have ANY Leica-branded items, I think it makes sense.

Burying such a major new format in with M-mount, R mount etc is not the right approach IMHO.

 

[pdk42]

Back when Amin combined the forums under this one, he did away with the many subforums under each.

Cameraderie

Photography forum community for sharing photos, information, and discussing camera gear. 📷

cameraderie.org

The Leica forum is organized like the others. Top-Level forum with a Showcase subforum. The forums are no longer organized by the mount and type in each.
For example- Nikon has F-Mount, Z-Mount, S-Mount, "Nikon One", and fixed-lens. It's all Nikon with a showcase forum.

If the Leica forum is going to be re-organized with Subforums for each mount, L, LTM, M, R, and Fixed-Lens- then the same should be done for each of the top-level forums. Nikon, Canon, u43, etc. Otherwise- use the Tags to find threads of interest.

I'm not suggesting that L-mount is a separate sub-forum of Leica. I'm suggesting that L-mount should have its own sub-forum, at the same level as Leica (i.e. a peer). That would sit better with the expanded landscape of L-mount rather than trying to coerce people with no Leica gear at all having to go to a forum called "Leica". It's canonical with how Micro 4/3 is treated - both are an open mount standard with multiple manufacturers contributing. I don't go to a forum called "Olympus and Olympus mounts" if I want to discuss something about Panasonic cameras or PL lenses.

 

[Brian]

If "L-Mount", the L is for Leica, had a non-brand association like Micro-43, I could see that.
Leica invented the mount, others use it. Back to the same is true of LTM and M-Mount.

 

[pdk42]

If "L-Mount", the L is for Leica, had a non-brand association like Micro-43, I could see that.
Leica invented the mount, others use it. Back to the same is true of LTM and M-Mount.

I don't think the details of how the mount was arrived at matter. What matters is that it's an open standard with a consortium of contributing partners, and the ecosystem as a whole is now clearly dominated by companies who are not Leica. Qudos to Leica for licensing/sharing their mount design, but they've created (along with Sigma and Panasonic) something which is now bigger than them.

 

[William Lewis]

And LTM was dominated by Nikon and Canon back in the day; frankly many/most of their lenses were superior to those from Leica. Look at David Douglas Duncan & his Nikkors. Yet it's still "L"eica Thread Mount to people today.

 

[pdk42]

And LTM was dominated by Nikon and Canon back in the day; frankly many/most of their lenses were superior to those from Leica. Look at David Douglas Duncan & his Nikkors. Yet it's still "L"eica Thread Mount to people today.

I don't think there's much of an analogy between M39/LTM and the L-mount consortium. The latter is a massive endeavour by Leica, Panasonic, and Sigma to create a whole new camera system. The fact that the mount is heavily based on Leica's design isn't denied, but it's not the main point of the system. Hiding such an important cross-manufacturer alliance, with all its aspirations to counter Sony, Nikon, and Canon behind a "Leica mount" top-level forum is not, IMHO, the best way to deal with this position. L-mount deserves a place at the top-table. It's a lot more than just a Leica mount.

 

[Brian]

A lot of different brand lenses and cameras get posted under this Forum as the specifications for the mount can be traced directly to Leica. Leica licensed out LTM technology in the 1930s.
A lot of work goes into designing a modern lens or camera for LTM and M-Mount. Same is true of L-Mount.

Leica L-Mount - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The L-Mount is a registered trademark of Leica Camera AG. L-Mount was called T-Mount, underwent a name change. It has been around longer than Nikon Z-Mount.

You do not have to like my analogy, but I do. Leica mounts have been popular with many camera and lens manufacturers for a very long time.

 

[pdk42]

A lot of different brand lenses and cameras get posted under this Forum as the specifications for the mount can be traced directly to Leica. Leica licensed out LTM technology in the 1930s.
A lot of work goes into designing a modern lens or camera for LTM and M-Mount. Same is true of L-Mount.

Leica L-Mount - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The L-Mount is a registered trademark of Leica Camera AG. L-Mount was called T-Mount, underwent a name change. It has been around longer than Nikon Z-Mount.

You do not have to like my analogy, but I do. Leica mounts have been popular with many camera and lens manufacturers for a very long time.

I'm not trying to argue that the mount didn't originate with Leica. That's not my point. My point is that the ecosystem that is L-mount is now so much more than Leica; and that its importance is such that it needs its own sub-forum. Consider this:

- The main website for L mount (l-mount.com) describes itself as "An Alliance by Leica, Sigma, Panasonic, Leitz, and DJI"
- There are 11 cameras using the mount. Only 3 are Leica
- There are 60 lenses using the mount. Only 17 are Leica
- All the "affordable" cameras and lenses are non-Leica
- Probably (my guess) most L mount users do not run Leica cameras or lenses due to price
- As a consequence, most L-mount users don't "identify" as Leica people, nor think of L-mount as a Leica "thing"

This isn't some argument saying that M39 needs its own forum - the importance of M39 is clearly many order of magnitudes lower than L mount!

 

[Kevin]

I'm between calls so I'm only stopping in for a second (which means this is a 'first pass at reading the thread' response)....

From an site admin perspective my view would be primarily towards volume of activity when talking about any new dedicated forum or sub-forum. Currently there are thread prefixes for "L-Mount" in the Leica forum and lenses available, and any thread in any forum can be tagged with "l-mount".

Using those as indicators, there doesn't seem to be much dedicated "L-Mount" activity.

• Leica Forum "L-Mount" prefixed threads
• Lenses Forum "L-Mount" prefixed threads
• "l-mount" tagged threads

There are a few ideas I can float about making it easier to find "L-Mount" prefixed/tagged content when viewing the forums but, at the moment, if hardly any threads are being prefixed/tagged specifically as "L-Mount" I don't see the benefit of making a dedicated forum or sub-forum.*





* = The use of the thread prefixes and tags is one of the things that help with the decision making process when these types of conversations come up. Prefixes & tags are a great way of seeing how much related content has been identified. If there was a huge amount of threads prefixed or tagged with "Books" in the open chat forum, for example, then it'd be time to consider a dedicated forum or sub-forum for the bibliophiles in our community [Kevin raises his hand] but based on the current volume of activity it wouldn't make sense.

 

[pdk42]

I'm between calls so I'm only stopping in for a second (which means this is a 'first pass at reading the thread' response)....

From an site admin perspective my view would be primarily towards volume of activity when talking about any new dedicated forum or sub-forum. Currently there are thread prefixes for "L-Mount" in the Leica forum and lenses available, and any thread in any forum can be tagged with "l-mount".

Using those as indicators, there doesn't seem to be much dedicated "L-Mount" activity.

• Leica Forum "L-Mount" prefixed threads
• Lenses Forum "L-Mount" prefixed threads
• "l-mount" tagged threads

There are a few ideas I can float about making it easier to find "L-Mount" prefixed/tagged content when viewing the forums but, at the moment, if hardly any threads are being prefixed/tagged specifically as "L-Mount" I don't see the benefit of making a dedicated forum or sub-forum.*





* = The use of the thread prefixes and tags is one of the things that help with the decision making process when these types of conversations come up. Prefixes & tags are a great way of seeing how much related content has been identified. If there was a huge amount of threads prefixed or tagged with "Books" in the open chat forum, for example, then it'd be time to consider a dedicated forum or sub-forum for the bibliophiles in our community [Kevin raises his hand] but based on the current volume of activity it wouldn't make sense.

Thanks Kevin. I can accept your point about posts, since my own observations are that there's not a lot of traffic on the threads I visit and post to. However, a few points:

- Perhaps the lack of posts might be because L-mount users don't immediately find a place for them to post so move on?

- If I go to the "Leica and Leica Mounts (M, LTM, L, R)" forum and look at the threads there, I'm confronted with a long list of esoteric Leica-specific topics - e.g. "Leica M9 sensor repair", "Jupiter * on an M9", etc. Most recent L-mount users, probably with a Panasonic camera of some sort, would run a mile seeing this stuff.

- Most L-mount users probably run a Panasonic camera, yet there is no obvious place to discuss this. A search for "Panasonic S5" reveals the best hit as "L-mount pictures, open thread".

- It's still comparatively early days for L-mount, but I believe (hope!) that it will gain further traction as time passes.

- There is not a lot of other dedicated fora for L-mount users out there, so Cameraderia might actually be able to offer a nice home for them.

- I think adding L-mount as a top-level sub-forum under "gear" need not require lots of re-org. It could be a go-forward position that reflects the emerging maturity and importance of the mount. So, not much effort needed!

I think I've made my points in the posts above, so I'll leave you to make your decision. Great site here BTW, so I'll respect whatever you decide.

 

[pdk42]

Final word - I note that DPR has separate L-mount and Leica forums:

 

[Brian]

I quit Digital Photography Review when I found they were monitoring Private Messages. I first joined over 20 years ago. At one point, DPR was banning all mention of any of Amin's forums. It was very ugly, DPR deleting many posts and even looking at PM's where I sent a DPR member a link to a repair thread that I posted on Amin's forum.

I personally own some 125 lenses in LTM and M-Mount. Only 20 of those are made by Leica. I post pictures with any of them on this forum.