Sony Sony Breaks New Ground with A7 / A7R Announcement

I'm sure the new Sony's are going to do well. But there are a couple things that still amaze me.

1. No RAW support out of the box - Can someone please tell me why Sony or Fuji for that matter work with the major software companies and have RAW support on day 1?

2. Fast small lenses - A few have mentioned in the above threads that fast lenses are too big and expensive to make for these cameras. It just shows how good Leica still is in this field.
 
For sample photos from review sites, I don't understand why reviewers always skimp out on providing portraits and other types of people photos. Instead, they give us a bunch of photos of inanimate objects like buildings and street signs.
 
For sample photos from review sites, I don't understand why reviewers always skimp out on providing portraits and other types of people photos. Instead, they give us a bunch of photos of inanimate objects like buildings and street signs.

It would seem to me that these reviewers are just interested in being the first to have "their" photos of the new product up first to get attention. Maybe they really aren't photographers, per se?
 
It would seem to me that these reviewers are just interested in being the first to have "their" photos of the new product up first to get attention. Maybe they really aren't photographers, per se?

I'm sure photos of buildings are compelling, especially to test things such as distortion. But IMO, a wider variety of photo subjects (including portraits) would allow many of us to evaluate the camera better.
 
Check Steve Huff:
Honky Tonkin’ with the Sony A7 and A7r in Nashville! | Steve Huff Photo

DSC00038.jpg
Join to see EXIF info for this image (if available)


Also CV 335mm 1.2
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For sample photos from review sites, I don't understand why reviewers always skimp out on providing portraits and other types of people photos. Instead, they give us a bunch of photos of inanimate objects like buildings and street signs.
 
Camera bodies are getting smaller and smaller, but sensor tech isn't at the level where lenses shrink at the same rate. Now we finally have a full frame mirrorless ILC for the 'mainstream' market (non-Leica). More lenses are on the horizon. But they will all be DSLR size lenses, and nothing in rangefinder size. Perhaps Voigtlander will fill the gap with more manual focus pancakes, but I don't see Sony/Zeiss aiming for this size.

And in the rush to create a useful lens family for this new line, Sony have to commit to a number of years of making and selling these lenses to cover their costs and make a profit. So, unless Sony make huge jumps in sensor tech that solves or minimizes the angle of incidence issues in the next few years, and they decide to cut their losses on the DSLR-size lenses, big lenses for the A series will still be here for several years.

It's exciting to think that we now have a mainstream full frame mirrorless camera at a very reasonable price. It bodes very well for future developments, not only from Sony, but from competitors who will realize they are missing a different market and being left behind. But in its current incarnation, with only big chunky native lenses available, and somewhat iffy performance with Leica M-mount lenses, I'm happy to sit back for another few generations of the full frame A.
 
Not the all conquering camera

Seems already Sony have jumped horses from Alpha DSLR to NEX to Alpha FF mirrorless, without once providing a decent lens line up. Unless you want to find the right adaptor or wait for them to provide an FF native lens. Wouldnt be holding my breath on that one - they seem to be too much of an fast turnover electronics company rather than a serious photographic system player.

Any one can make a small body with a big sensor - but what about the glass? The zooms wont be small, and if you want fast then they will be big and expensive and probably handle like a dog on the small body. And now there's the revelations of lousy corner resolution and odd colour casts if using wide angles lens via an adapter. Maybe a firmware update could fix it - be interesting to see if Sony addresses the issue.

But if your desperate for FF and happy with the few pickings on offer for lenses, you could be quite happy.

Frankly the only real serious compact system players are M43, easily ahead in lenses by a huge margin, and with Fuji trailing a significant way behind. And seeing that the GX7 and E-M1 can basically match APS up to 6400 ISO, then I am quite happy to stay with the runt of the sensor size litter.:D
 
Unless you want to ........ wait for them to provide an FF native lens. Wouldnt be holding my breath on that one - they seem to be too much of an fast turnover electronics company rather than a serious photographic system player.

Frankly the only real serious compact system players are M43, easily ahead in lenses by a huge margin, and with Fuji trailing a significant way behind. And seeing that the GX7 and E-M1 can basically match APS up to 6400 ISO, then I am quite happy to stay with the runt of the sensor size litter.:D

On Sony, we'll see. The RX1 tells me they've come a loooong way toward the photographer friendly side of the equation. And I like a lot of what I see of the RX10 and A7, where they seem to be applying those same lessons. Whether they'll stick with the system long enough to develop a full line of lenses remains to be seen. I suspect they will, but I also agree with Archiver that such lenses outside of the semi-wide to neutral range are likely gonna be bigger than I'll want to deal with. Hell, Fuji iis showing with their excellent APS lenses, that good, mostly optically corrected, lenses are pretty big even for APS based sensors. I've got an RX1 that I absolutely love and if there's ever a really good native 24 or 28mm for the A system, I may go for an A7 (or some descendent) with just a couple of lenses. But unless they can do some much smaller lenses than I'd bet they can do well, I'll stick with APS for my ultra wides and either APS or m43 for my portrait length and longer lenses.

As for m43, I agree that they're farther along than any other mirrorless system in terms of a complete lens lineup, but I don't think you can say they're the "only real serious compact system players". Fuji is showing a strong commitment to lenses, even starting to develop a line of budget lenses along with the higher end options. And Samsung is developing a really impressive line of reasonably priced lenses for its NX system. There's a lot to like about m43 - I'm sticking with it for all of my longer lens needs - but they're far from the only serious compact system players!

-Ray
 
I agree with you that Sony needs lenses and optically corrected lenses are not going to be small like Fuji's as Ray said. I am using both m43 and nex. I love the small digitally corrected m43 lenses, but I hate that I don't have the option to not select the digital correction eg 28mm/35mm/40mm equivalent lenses stretch the faces on the edges more then my CV12mm at equiv 18mm on nex. Except a one pancake zoom lens on nex, most of them are optically corrected compared to the m43 eg $1200 Panasonic 12-35mm 2.8 has 6%+ distortion. Oly 12-40 is even bigger and will see if they will do the same... Similarly the new Oly 35-150mm 2.8 lens is not smaller then the FF equivalent Canon 70-300mm IS that I have. So nothing comes magically small without any compromises. Similarly Leica didn't use the microlenses with M (due to CMOS chip) as compared to Leica M9 and is using the digital corrections more and more...

I think Sony learned their lesson w/ nex and looks like following the Fuji model and also learned to find the niches like they did w/ RX1 & RX100. M43 took 4-5 years to become a system so it will take time but Sony is committing 15 lenses next 2 years shows the support for FF. They lost the Betamax but won the bluray. Sb in dpreview posted that number of mirrorless photos in flickr and number one was nex. Of course M43 in combo was higher. Sony managed to make it without lenses in a shorter time as they gave the bodies nearly free at the bottom end cameras. By aggressively pricing the bodies, they are not going against Leica, they are going for the Canikon folks which some of them are already buying the A7/A7R.

It looks like Fuji might be the next competition for Sony:
http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/fuji-will-challenge-sonys-rx1-and-a7-cameras/
Now I am 100% sure that Fuji will likely be the first company to challenge the Sony FF mirrorless cameras!

1) Next year (2014) they will launch a new X200 Full Frame fixed lens camera that will compete against the Sony RX1. But unlike the RX1 the X200 will have a built-in hybrid viewfinder.

2) In early 2015 Fuji will then launch a complete new Full Frame mirrorless and interchangeable camera. It will compete against the Sony A7-A7r (and future A9) series.

It’s also 100% clear that Fuji will develop their own Organic sensor for these cameras. They will not borrow the sensor from Sony!
 
Steve Huff day 2 w/ A&/A7R:
Day Two: Sony A7 and A7r with Zeiss Otus and more! | Steve Huff Photo

In regards to Leica M Mount lenses using adapters…The A7r has issues with the 12, 15 and 21mm focal length, even 28mm to some extent. The A7 had some slight vignetting with the 15 and 21 but no real color shift. Not nearly as much as the A7r. So if you are one who was planning on using WIDE ANGLE Leica M mount glass, go for the A7.

The A7R offers pure power in resolution and that is about the only advantage it gives over the cheaper A7 (besides slight build on the dials). I love both but the A7 shutter is quieter, the AF is faster and the camera costs less and does better with wide angle Leica M glass!

The A7 and A7r do amazingly well with the Sony FE lenses as well as Leica M mount glass from 35mm and up. The Voigtlander 35 1.2 II is doing mighty fine on the A7 or A7r and I prefer using it on these cameras over using it on the Leica M. It is easy to focus using the EVF and Focus Peaking and I can MF faster than I can on my M. This will be one lens I highly recommend for the A7 or A7r for those that want really nice shallow DOF and sharp results to go with it in a 35mm format.

More A7/A7R samples
Sony a7 and a7R Image Samples
Quick Samples: Sony A7r and Zeiss 55mm f1.4 Otus - The Phoblographer
 
That's odd. I thought Sony was "supposed to" have taken wide angle M lenses into consideration when designing the A7r. And the A7 was the one that was going to exhibit issues with the wide M lenses.
 
Seems already Sony have jumped horses from Alpha DSLR to NEX to Alpha FF mirrorless, without once providing a decent lens line up. Unless you want to find the right adaptor or wait for them to provide an FF native lens. Wouldnt be holding my breath on that one - they seem to be too much of an fast turnover electronics company rather than a serious photographic system player.

Any one can make a small body with a big sensor - but what about the glass? The zooms wont be small, and if you want fast then they will be big and expensive and probably handle like a dog on the small body. And now there's the revelations of lousy corner resolution and odd colour casts if using wide angles lens via an adapter. Maybe a firmware update could fix it - be interesting to see if Sony addresses the issue.

But if your desperate for FF and happy with the few pickings on offer for lenses, you could be quite happy.

Frankly the only real serious compact system players are M43, easily ahead in lenses by a huge margin, and with Fuji trailing a significant way behind. And seeing that the GX7 and E-M1 can basically match APS up to 6400 ISO, then I am quite happy to stay with the runt of the sensor size litter.:D

It's clear that Sony is simply pushing the envelope fast. But at some point it has to stabilize. It may be that mirrorless FF is that plateau for them. We'll see. I agree on the lens front, but they do seem to be working on that. Zeiss is very much a partner now. And in truth, none of these companies will reach the lens lineup that Nikon and Canon have - and there's no reason too either. They only need a small range of key lens options, in both "standard" and high quality options.

Personally speaking, give me a 28mm, 50mm, 90mm and a standard zoom, and maybe a tele zoom, and that's all I need. I can do most anything with those options.

M43s does have the most complete system right now, but as Ray says the others are catching up. My current catalog of cameras includes the Ricoh GR for (pocketable) 28mm and a newly acquired Olympus E-M1 (happy 45th birthday to me) with the Panasonic 25mm for the 50mm lens and Olympus 45mm for the 90mm lens. The 12-40mm is on order. After many mirrorless cameras with "thoughtful" AF the snappy AF of the EM1 is fantastic. A much better family camera for me.

I am still building processing recipes for the EM1, still getting to know it and the RAW files. Oddly, it's more challenging than other cameras in the RAW processing facet and I cannot decide if maybe it is more flexible than other cameras or more limited. It responds differently to my adjustments than other cameras have. It is a little frustrating, but I'm seeing progress.
 
I think pixel density is hitting its limit for color shift. It was similar btw nex 5n/6 to nex 7. However microlenses might give better corners w/ A7R. We'll see if he makes a direct comparison tomorrow, hopefully w/ full size or at least cropped corners. So far all the tests were done with one camera w/ no direct comparison to the other.

That's odd. I thought Sony was "supposed to" have taken wide angle M lenses into consideration when designing the A7r. And the A7 was the one that was going to exhibit issues with the wide M lenses.
 
as he admitted in that same piece, steve did not test WA lenses. he took a few shots with a couple of lenses, and none of themwere landscapes. he then drew 'conclusions' about easily correctable vignetting and CA, but nothing about non-correctable edge detail. i submit that, while i do like steve, he was way premature to conclude anything based on the very limited, casual samplings he's made.
 
as he admitted in that same piece, steve did not test WA lenses. he took a few shots with a couple of lenses, and none of themwere landscapes. he then drew 'conclusions' about easily correctable vignetting and CA, but nothing about non-correctable edge detail. i submit that, while i do like steve, he was way premature to conclude anything based on the very limited, casual samplings he's made.

Enthusiasm will get you everywhere :p
 
That's odd. I thought Sony was "supposed to" have taken wide angle M lenses into consideration when designing the A7r. And the A7 was the one that was going to exhibit issues with the wide M lenses.

A voice from the past jumps back in the water. I figure I'm allowed back here now that I've sold my D800 and heavy glass (well in a few more hours I will have).

I can't find anywhere that categorically states Sony set out to design a camera capable of supporting every single M lens under the sun without any colour shift or smearing. Heck, not even Leica can claim that.

Instead, I believe and have believed for more than a year now when it was clear to me that Ricoh had given up on this slice of the market, that no one, other than Leica, is likely to ever again produce cameras tuned for M lenses. As sensors get larger the problem becomes more difficult. Instead, makers are quite right to develop new designs or refine old ones such that they can more easily handle the demands of a full frame sensor.

Indeed that's exactly what Zeiss are doing - they've announced they'll build a new line of manual focus lenses specifically for full frame mirrorless cameras like the narrow back focal length E mount, and the first platform they'll support is E mount. Leica have been and will continue to refine their own designs for better "digital" compatibility, which really means full frame sensor and increasing pixel density compatibility.

The new Sony FE 35/2.8 shows that Zeiss design can produce a compact, very high performance, full frame lens that delivers sharp results to the periphery. It has quite a different design than the Biogon 2,8/35ZM.

Here's a film-era Biogon, the ZM 35/2.8 (which needs another 9.5mm adapter added to it for E mount use):
zm35-2.8-diagram.png

(Source: Zeiss)

Sony on the other hand has no legacy to cater to. The Sony FE 35/3.8 shows you can design a lens that is, like the ZM35/2.8, of small size, but preforms solidly on big digital sensors.
sony-fe35-2.8-diagram.png

(Source: Zony)

While the above isn't built to the ZM standards, reportedly it is built very well.

Those that want the traditional ZM type of all metal manual focus RF style lens -- probably with electronic contacts for E mount (yay, EXIF data) will get their wish in an updated E mount version sometime in 2013.

I see these types of developments as a positive. Sure, I wish all existing M lenses could run on any camera under the sun, but I became convinced this wasn't going to pan out that way, at least not until some quantum leap forward in sensor tech happens. I felt so strongly about this I sold all my ZM glass off early in 2013. The Zeiss announcement kinda convinces me that nothing like that is on the near horizon.

In the meantime, I'm going to be an A7r guinea pig using 2 native Zeiss FE lenses and filling in the ultra wide end with something adapted until native lenses fill that gap.
 
So, will future iterations of Leica lenses be bigger than their earlier film predecessors to accommodate sensor limitations, or will sensor tech overcome the angle of incidence issue before new Leica lens designs become necessary?

Steve Huff's photos and comments about the A7 and M-mount lenses are very promising. My travel kit is 21, 35 and 50 on the M9, and the A7 could make a very close M240 substitute. With the high ISO and video capabilities of the A7, it could (gasp) replace my M9 on trips. A smaller, much cheaper, and versatile Leica M substitute. Steve's photos with the Voigtlander 35/1.2 and Zeiss Planar 50/2 are extra tempting

But it also potentially opens up another mount system, which I really don't need! Maybe if I just superglued the M-mount adapter to it...
 
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