Leica Tell me I'm an idiot........ please!

defektive

Veteran
May 4, 2011
Tasmania, Australia
Sam
Fair enough. I hope you feel better.

You want the truth ? I'll give you the truth.

For the last year I've been watching many so called photographers buy, trade and sell every new camera that comes down the pike yet never see any photographs. A 10 is not better than a 9 just because a manufacture says it is. Sensor size, megapixel and ridiculous high ISO mean nothing if you don't have a good eye. Seriously, stop buying and selling cameras like they're stock, shut the **** up and shoot because a new camera is not going to make you any better of a photographer.

Rant Off
 

pdh

Legend
Jan 2, 2011
I don't think it's fair enough.
I think it's rude and aggressive.
Members here should not have to put up with being told to "shut the **** up".

Michael if you wish to indulge in this kind of abusive ranting there are plenty of forums that tolerate it, but SC hasn't been one of them, and I don't see a reason for it to start now.
 

TraamisVOS

Hall of Famer
Nov 29, 2010
Melbourne, Australia
SC hasn't been one of them
I kind of agree with this. It's one of the reasons I love SC, the community here is smaller and more mature (not talking about age here), everyone sort of knows each other, everyone is always supportive and criticism is constructive.

I wasn't particularly offended by Michael's rant but I think it comes down to me being a bit more numbed to it from hanging out in more rough-n-tumble boxing forums. Then I remembered this is SC!

Putting aside the rant aspect of what Michael was saying though, he is kind of right even if it's not particularly relevant to the OP's post. I was speaking to a friend of mine yesterday and having a bit of a chuckle about us reaching high geek levels of obssession where very very tiny details of the best equipment just isn't good enough anymore. Good cameras that take amazing photographs in the eyes of the average person on the street aren't good enough for high level geeks like us anymore. For me personally I haven't yet reached the ultimate micropixel-peeping nerd levels and I hope I never do.
 

Landshark

PhotoDog
Jul 15, 2010
SoCal
Bob
You want the truth ? I'll give you the truth.

For the last year I've been watching many so called photographers buy, trade and sell every new camera that comes down the pike yet never see any photographs.

Rant Off
Just because someone does not post images on the internet does not mean they are not shooting
 

flash

Veteran
May 6, 2011
Gordon
Personally I'm totally over film. It has no magic for me. Now days all I see is the extra trouble involved with shooting it.

But my frustration will always be someone else's joy. If you feel the need for film then go for it. When you shoot for pleasure the craft is a great part of the process.

A couple of things first. How much film have you shot? It's a big difference to film. You may love it or hate it. If you're not sure I'd look at a really cheap SLR for a couple of months to see if you're really going to shoot or just leave the camera at home and take a digital.

Secondly, you seemed to feel that upgrading from the M8 to M9 would bring some benifit and yet there has been some disappointment. You need to qualify that first. Is it that you only have the one lens now? what do you feel you're missing.

When you truely connect with a camera you don't ask these questions? You do whatever you can do to keep it. So I think the M9 isn't for you. And I don't know if changing to a film version is a solution. There are other rangefinders other than the M. Maybe even a Mamyia 7II or an Xpan.

Gordon
 

BillN

Hall of Famer
Aug 25, 2010
S W France
Bill
You want the truth ? I'll give you the truth.

For the last year I've been watching many so called photographers buy, trade and sell every new camera that comes down the pike yet never see any photographs. A 10 is not better than a 9 just because a manufacture says it is. Sensor size, megapixel and ridiculous high ISO mean nothing if you don't have a good eye. Seriously, stop buying and selling cameras like they're stock, shut the **** up and shoot because a new camera is not going to make you any better of a photographer.

Rant Off
Although I agree that most "new" cameras today are very similar and buying the latest may not help you produce better images, (in fact the reverse) ......... I'll tell you what, since I bought my 300mm f4 prime, I've taken far better shots than I did with my 70 300mm VR zoom .......... I wish I dare spent the money for a 300mm f2.8 prime or 400mm f4

Equipment does matter and can improve your images........ if you are happy and comfortable with your gear you will use it more and probably take better images

Certain cameras can limit your progress - but the M9 is not one of these ...... but an M9 plus a couple of Leica lenses is a lot of money to have tied up in gear ... when these days apparently the Fuji XP whatever is as good and easier to use, (for some)
 

Herman

The Image Stimulator
Jul 11, 2010
The Netherlands
Herman
You want the truth ? I'll give you the truth.

For the last year I've been watching many so called photographers buy, trade and sell every new camera that comes down the pike yet never see any photographs. A 10 is not better than a 9 just because a manufacture says it is. Sensor size, megapixel and ridiculous high ISO mean nothing if you don't have a good eye. Seriously, stop buying and selling cameras like they're stock, shut the **** up and shoot because a new camera is not going to make you any better of a photographer.



Rant Off
Right! Well said. I take pictures with my wife's camera, an oldie, Panasonic G1.
 

retow

All-Pro
Jul 24, 2010
I don't think it's fair enough.
I think it's rude and aggressive.
Members here should not have to put up with being told to "shut the **** up".

Michael if you wish to indulge in this kind of abusive ranting there are plenty of forums that tolerate it, but SC hasn't been one of them, and I don't see a reason for it to start now.
I think the context matters in which things are being said. If have no problem with Michael's post. I actually see a sense of humor behind his rant. And lastly, there is a lot of truth in what he is saying but it's not always easy being forced to look into a mirror:eek:.
 

BillN

Hall of Famer
Aug 25, 2010
S W France
Bill
Camera usage - I think that it depends on your interests and the camera/lens flexibility that you have .......... in my case I NEED two or three

A DSLR .......... it is the only option for a long telephone or prime - i.e. over 100mm .......... but the Nikon V1/J1 looks good ............ also with a "big" lens you need a big body - (as the actress said to the Bishop, if you get my drift)
M43 ....... great flexibility and IQ especially if you have legacy MF lens ...... plus the 20mm f1.7 is still a "star"
M8 ......... to use where only rangefinders can go .......... MF is so much better than AF in some situations and RF glass beats a lot of the modern stuff
S95 ....... a great little camera to take anywhere

I'm now out of using legacy MF glass and certainly would not want to go back to film, even occasionally

To date this year I have about 2000 images in LR, (images I want to keep - keepers, if you like) - 64% taken with my D300, 11% with my S95, 15% with my M8 and 10% with my G1/EP-1 ........ probably OTT on DSLR and as the summer approaches the ratios will even out more

We are fortunate today in that there are many inexpensive cameras that take great shots

The V1 looks really good and could replace the S95 and M43 stuff ........ I will always keep my M8, (and would buy an M9 when the need arises), it is RF which I appreciate and RF glass is still great.

You can "have it all" ..... but not with one camera set up
So my ideal three would be D300, (to be replaced by the next Nikon the DX replacement) ............ with the trilogy of Nikon glass, plus the 300mm f4 and 300mm or 400mm f2.8 ....plus a few more!!
M8 plus the Zeiss Biogon 28mm f2.8
V1 (and FT1 adapter), plus a few of the lenses Nikon produce for the camera

what no Fuji in there!!!
 
Nov 11, 2011
Milwaukee, WI USA
Luke
There's a good chunk of truth in Michael's rant and I see a fair amount of myself in there so I didn't post anything at first. But upon reflection, whether it's true or not, it distinctly lacks tact. Obviously he feels strongly about it. Perhaps we should all just run around and snap cell phone photos.....they really take incredible photos these days.:p

Obviously we would all benefit from just shooting more (or just being born with "the eye"), but who knows how much the OP shoots. For myself, I just don't have the time in my life to shoot as often as I'd like. But it doesn't stop me from thinking about my hobby and wondering if a different camera might change the way I shoot. I'm not so foolish to think I'll get "better photos" (whatever that is) by buying a new camera. Sometimes it's a user interface, sometimes it's a sensible means of downsizing one's investment in gear. Whatever the need (or perceived need) for a switch in gear, a forum called "Serious Compacts" (not "Serious Photos") should be the place to discuss it.

Obviously everyone is here because they love photography, but a great many also love the tools that help us turn our vision into that photo. Without the camera, the vision is trapped in our head. We need the machine to facilitate the transfer from "our eye" to the viewer's eye.

If anyone dislikes reading about people fretting over which new camera is the right one for them, maybe they should go look at some photos instead of hanging out in a gear forum.:biggrin:
 

BrianS

Legend
Jul 7, 2010
I think it's great that someone wants to shoot with a film camera over digital. I shoot both.

Selling/Trading the M9 for an M6- That's not like trading an M9 for an M10. That's more like changing an eBook for print.

I just sold off an M3, if I buy an M9M it will be from selling gear. My current monochrome Digital camera is 20 years old, getting "long in the tooth".
 

stillshunter

Super Moderator Emeritus
Nov 5, 2010
Down Under
Mark
I think it's great that someone wants to shoot with a film camera over digital. I shoot both.

Selling/Trading the M9 for an M6- That's not like trading an M9 for an M10. That's more like changing an eBook for print.

I just sold off an M3, if I buy an M9M it will be from selling gear. My current monochrome Digital camera is 20 years old, getting "long in the tooth".
Please note that us Aussies are doing our bit for film. Well someone has to bolster ailing US giants like Kodak so the silver halide production lines keep turning :wink: Be a sad day when TMax goes the way of Kodachrome.

Be keen to hear your impression of the M-Monochrom Brian. Although you're not the only one hankering one, it sounds as though you might be the only SC member fronting up the dollars.
 

BrianS

Legend
Jul 7, 2010
My impression of the M-Monochrome. 18 months ago I called Kodak and spoke with the engineer about what it would take to make a monochrome version of the KAF-18500. Wanted to know the minimum order. Was ready to talk to a company for converting regular M9's to monochrome. The funny part was one of the engineers remembered me from almost 20 years earlier talking them into an Infrared version of the DCS200.
 

stillshunter

Super Moderator Emeritus
Nov 5, 2010
Down Under
Mark
My impression of the M-Monochrome. 18 months ago I called Kodak and spoke with the engineer about what it would take to make a monochrome version of the KAF-18500. Wanted to know the minimum order. Was ready to talk to a company for converting regular M9's to monochrome. The funny part was one of the engineers remembered me from almost 20 years earlier talking them into an Infrared version of the DCS200.
You must have made quite the impression Brian.....c'mon what did you do to make it so memorable...x2?
 

BrianS

Legend
Jul 7, 2010
I told them that making the IR version of a DCS200 was like a Bacon and Tomato sandwich, just leave off the lettuce- the IR cut filter. The engineer laughed, told me they put all this work into making the digital sensor look like film and I wanted them to undo it all. A few months later they called back, said they would do the IR camera. Another customer called and wanted the same thing. $12,400 for a 1.6MPixel camera body. The M8M is a bargain!

At the time, 1993, I worked in the Advanced Concepts Branch of the Optical Sciences Division, and had already worked with Digital IR for 12 years. $12,400 for a 1.6MPixel camera was cheap.
 

Michael Penn

Veteran
Sep 14, 2010
Philadelphia
My response

"It wasn't directed at any one person. I've been lurking and posting on this forum for a year + and the vast majority of people on here do nothing more than "upgrade" cameras without ever learning to use any of them. I wonder if they realize that they're the reason manufactures are trickling out technology. All it takes is one camera quirk and it's abandoned ship and the quirk is usually a nit pick by a camera reviewer and not a real user. I don't think I have anything to offer on this forum so I won't be back. I'll actually be outside taking photos."
 

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