The Ultimate Unified "Find Your Tips and Tangents Here" Thread

[Charzes44]

Nature - Words/No Words: Color landscapes

For those who aren't familiar with the terms "words/no words" basically it means that W/NW threads are not for critiquing of images, but rather a place of sharing. Of course it's always fine to tell someone how much you like their photographs.:cool: Please consider using this thread to share...

cameraderie.org

The W/NW format goes back to the late 90s on the Photo.net Leica forum.
Years ago- the "Show" header was introduced on one of the predecessor forums that got rolled into Cameraderie, and supplanted the "W/NW" header. The intent is the same.
With the consolidation of many equipment specific and image oriented forums into this one, "Themed" threads where many members contribute their images to a theme have superseded "W/NW" and "Show" type threads. The idea is the same as before.

Sorry Brian, but I am none the wiser!

 

[MoonMind]

"W/NW" - words/no words: If not specifically invited to comment, don't. At least that's how I experienced it when I first encountered it years back; such threads are treated as "themed" today, and have been for a while.
"Show" used to mean something similar: Only images, no words. This restriction has long ago fallen out of use and been replaced by the idea of a "show" thread being a themed one as well.

As Brian indicated, we're no longer enforching any of those restrictions to the letter; I tried to explain what we would like to see various times now. Basically, we're treating all titled threads as "themed" and as equally as possible - we've had lots of people join later than any of this went into and out of use. To create a possiblility to establish personal rules about how one's own images should be treated, there has been a bit of debate going on as to if to establish a "Personal Projects" subforum within the Photo Challenges section where people can establish a set of (additional or complementary) rules to get the kind of feedback they desire. It'd also allow them not to have to place their work within a catch-everyting-simliar themed thread if they feel irked by this expectation. In my view, this'll reduce visibilty for such threads and projects, but I may be entirely wrong about this, so I'd say we can give this a try. This would allow you - within the rules and regulations that apply to all posts in this forum - to have your work discussed in depth and detail if anyone decides to play along. I don't know that this would make a lot of people happy, but maybe some?

Look, the key point of all this is pretty easy to grasp: Allow image threads to remain dedicated to images fitting its theme. If that's difficult to understand (I don't know why it would be, to be honest), let's see if we can work out where the limits are. Again, this is not meant to ban all talk within images threads, just to remind everyone that image threads are just that - and comments, if you feel the need to add them. have to be on topic, useful and constructive; tongue-in-cheek stuff needs to be obvious enough not to cause irritation (use an emoji for this if you can't put it into words). Keep it reasonably short, keep it accessible (and as supportive as you can), don't distract from the images, and you're good.

M.

 

[Brian]

Sorry Brian, but I am none the wiser!

Here's an example for this picture, taken some 25 years ago, with a Nikon F Photomic Bullseye and Reflex-Nikkor 500/8, hand-held:

Posted on other forums,

Some of the comments...
"You should have used a slower shutter speed to get more motion in the prop"
or
"Why use such a cheap lens? You need to buy a Nikkor 500mm F4"

Now that I am older and wiser and so much nicer, rather than draw on my Extensive Upbringing on Mad Magazine, we'll just move such comments here...

 

[John King]

Tricky. I'm very much in favour of friendly banter - that's where the 'cameraderie' part of it lies, for me.
People express their personalities through exchanging the occasional pleasantry or responding with an anecdote sparked by an image posted by someone else.
Likeminded people with the same hobby in all corners of the globe having a meeting place to exchange some thoughts centered on their images - that's what makes it a nice place to visit (for me).

I totally agree with you, Irene. I count you among the pen friends whom I have made through this forum. I've also strongly encouraged quite a few others to come here, because this forum is almost invariably polite, even if some of us occasionally and/or inadvertently post things in the "wrong" place.
Inferring any kind of inappropriate intent from these excursions is a mistake, IMHO.

There would be a risk of this friendly forum becoming sterile and overly hygienic if all chatter were to be forcibly shut down.

Again, this is the thought that immediately went through my mind.

1) I don't see that there is a problem that needs a solution; and
2) This forum is an important social contact place for me; and
3) Heavy handed moderation can be destructive to any forum, and I've personally seen several destroyed by this, as has also been the case where there is no, or poor, moderation.

I can see that the occasional comment I have made has helped some specific people to greatly improve their photography in my relatively short time here. You simply cannot "bottle" some 65 years of experience and put it somewhere that no one will ever see it! It is a certainty that I am not alone in this situation. Many here have enormous personal experience and helpful suggestions to make.

Having been the target of organised and systematic trolling for some 11 years on another forum, there is simply no way I will be similarly unkind to anyone here!

There was a huge influx of "new" people here when the new owners of MU-43, Vertical Scope, decided that they owned our images as co-copyright holders. I was instrumental in that large influx. Many of us are not particularly familiar with the uncommon nomenclature used here, and have occasionally breached some historical barrier, often quite unwittingly.

Obviously being obnoxious, flexing 'my gear is better than yours' or giving unsolicited critique are to be avoided

Totally agree.

 

[Brian]

This thread has been established to emphasize the etiquette that has been practiced on this forum and its predecessors going back almost 15 years now.

I introduced the "W/NW" format to a predecessor forum well over a decade ago, this has evolved into the theme oriented threads. Before that suggestion, most threads were posted with a single image. Others commented on them, but few posted their own images to them. I suggested a "W/NW" format to consolidate the image threads into themes. Due to unsolicited and unwanted feedback and comments on some images, we implemented "For critique" tag. Provide any technical feedback and suggestions you want on those requests for comments. Leave such suggestions out of the Theme threads.

 

[Bobby T]

Heavy handed moderation

There is a big difference between heavy handed moderation and not being lax on long established rules. Most, if not all, of the moderators here have been on this site. And the original sites that were merged into this site. Most of us were moderators on the original sites where these rules came from. And in the case of Brian, he has been doing this longer than most of us in one form or another. Being there when things like words/no words, and many of the rules for etiquette were established.

 

[John King]

There is a big difference between heavy handed moderation and not being lax on long established rules. Most, if not all, of the moderators here have been on this site. And the original sites that were merged into this site. Most of us were moderators on the original sites where these rules came from. And in the case of Brian, he has been doing this longer than most of us in one form or another. Being there when things like words/no words, and many of the rules for etiquette were established.

While I agree with you, Bobby, the "quote" you chose from my post is totally removed from its context ...

That context is a very important modifier to the short portion that you chose to quote. It tends towards a misinterpretation of what I said, which was:

"3) Heavy handed moderation can be destructive to any forum, and I've personally seen several destroyed by this, as has also been the case where there is no, or poor, moderation."

The context is very important.

 

[Brian]

Zeiss User Forums

Photography forum for users of Zeiss cameras and lenses. There are sections for the new generation of Zeiss lenses, including the SLR lenses (ZE for Canon, ZF for Nikon, ZK for Pentax, and ZS for M42 screwmount a.k.a. Pentax screwmount), the ZA lenses for Sony DSLRs, and the ZM lenses in Leica M-mount. There are also forums for Contax equipment, Zeiss medium and large format, vintage Zeiss gear, and more. Powered by vBulletin.

web.archive.org

Where did the years go. A lot of forums were rolled into this one. I was on mu-43 when it was re-launched as mu-43, it used to be an SLR forum.
This forum has its own culture. It is not mu-43. It is not DPReview, or Photo.net, or "APUG", or RFF, or TPF, or Ugly Hedgehog, or a lot of other forums out there. It has evolved into primarily an Image oriented forum where enthusiasts display work they are proud of. Members that want advice ask for it. Same with critique- it is by request. Comments in image threads such as "You should have used a slower shutter speed" or "you should crop out xxxx" will be moved here. This is simple, has always been the etiquette of a W/NW thread.

For those from mu-43.com,

Words/ No Words: Existing Light Portraits

Nikkor-SC 5cm F1.4 (Leica Thread Mount, early version) wide-open on the EP2 My daughter, lighting from a flat-panel display at the Natural History Museum. She is captivated by one of the displays, and as always- I have my camera. Please post your photo's to the topic. There have not been...

www.mu-43.com

Words/No Words were introduced in 2010.

"The idea is to post images to a topic. An image may stand on its own, or have an explanation. It is interesting to see the works of others, on a related topic. It's about the image, with some footnotes on equipment used and technical information for the benefit of the observer. Some might be interested in what this or that lens, camera or film can produce.

The W/NW threads are not for critique of images. Post a follow-up image and let it speak for itself, and to inspire- rather than giving advice on how you would have done the image. W/NW threads typically are open to all types of camera formats, even in semi-dedicated sites such as this one.

W/NW threads were popular on photo.net, going back a long time. I first started participating in ~2002. Several Photography sites have set up W/NW forums. Rangefinderforum.com has an active W/NW forum.

Just to add- many times you get a Photo that you want to show, and on a site with a W/NW forum- often an existing thread is there to place it in. Otherwise, many "one-Photo" threads come, and sink into the abyss within a week. The W/NW threads bring the old posts back to the surface."

By this guy-

Brian S​

Mu-43 Top Veteran​

Joined Apr 11, 2009

 

[davidzvi]

.....
I can see that the occasional comment I have made has helped some specific people to greatly improve their photography in my relatively short time here. You simply cannot "bottle" some 65 years of experience and put it somewhere that no one will ever see it! It is a certainty that I am not alone in this situation. Many here have enormous personal experience and helpful suggestions to make.
.....

No one is suggesting members can't give advice, suggestions, etc. when it's asked for. It should not be given in the image threads.

But keep in mind that this is a format-agnostic forum. If advice is asked for, it should be based on or translatable to the equipment the shooter is using.

Edit: If it's asked for in an image thread, you can always add a one-line comment (or PM) to the poster and ask them to open a critique thread.

 

[Irene McC]

The problem is, people might be very proud of whatever they are posting in a picture thread, yet there may be something obvious
that could be a small change, which would really improve not only that specific image, but also their understanding of how to
improve their future shooting and editing. They don't ask for critique because they don't realize that situation.

So the 'use a slower shutter speed' advice is well meant and educational for ongoing photography and all others can also learn from that.
Likewise the skew horizon. An easy thing to rectify either while shooting (pay attention) or in post, to just rotate the image a tad.
But no, let's all bite our collective tongues

 

[Bobby T]

While I agree with you, Bobby, the "quote" you chose from my post is totally removed from its context

I quoted it that way as it could’ve been taken that we are doing heavy handed moderation. We are not. If anything we have gotten a little too lax on the rules.

So the 'use a slower shutter speed' advice is well meant and educational for ongoing photography and all others can also learn from that.
Likewise the skew horizon. An easy thing to rectify either while shooting (pay attention) or in post, to just rotate the image a tad.
But no, let's all bite our collective tongues

If critique is not asked for in a thread that is not open to critique. Then yes, bite your tongues. Just like scrolling through social media and ignoring something you don’t agree with instead of getting into a pointless internet argument where no one wins. Or changes the other person’s mind.

If anyone wants to try to educate others. Take a bad photo. Make a post. Then proceed to show how you would correct it.

 

[Brian]

The problem is, people might be very proud of whatever they are posting in a picture thread, yet there may be something obvious
that could be a small change, which would really improve not only that specific image, but also their understanding of how to
improve their future shooting and editing. They don't ask for critique because they don't realize that situation.

So the 'use a slower shutter speed' advice is well meant and educational for ongoing photography and all others can also learn from that.
Likewise the skew horizon. An easy thing to rectify either while shooting (pay attention) or in post, to just rotate the image a tad.
But no, let's all bite our collective tongues

Then bite your tongue. Your advice might be fine for how you would have shot the photo, but not for how I or someone else would do it. So it becomes "This is how I would do it, and how I think it would have made your photo better for me" comment. It's an opinion. Post your own photo in the same thread and give a short explanation of the setup and processing to make your point.

Use a slower shutter speed? My comment back on that- would have been for the person to learn something about hand-holding a 500mm lens at an airshow, or trying to use a 500mm F4 lens hand-held. Use on a tripod at an Airshow? I know more than they do. I've been shooting airshows since 1970. The "Slower-Shutter speed advice" was from an Idiot on the Internet. I've seen lots of those since 1980.

Photography is a combination of art, science, and individual expression. Post critique when asked, treat the Theme threads as an exhibit. Art critics write their piece and post it elsewhere, they do not take out brushes and start painting over the art or announce to everyone in the room how it should have been done. Critique and advice that goes against the etiquette of the theme threads will be moved here. Anyone looking for extra feedback on "using a slower shutter speed" will know where to look for it.

 

[Irene McC]

I shall be shutting the front door, thanks all

 

[doobs]

I've been watching this discussion with a bit of interest since it emerged.

Maybe it's just us "old farts" but I'm decidedly on the side of Irene and John in this discussion.

Typically, I don't comment about the technical features of an image, but will comment about something in the image. You can search my comments specific examples.

I've already second guessed myself about commenting on an image.

That's decidedly not why I came here in the first place.

Let's see how this evolves...

 

[Brian]

We've put out examples of the type of comments that will be moved to this thread. This etiquette for "W/NW", "Show", and "Theme" threads has been around for much longer than Amin started ZIforums in 2008. The reasons are simple- Many people don't like advice about how they should have done something different when they have formed their own style. Those comments will be moved here.

We've had enough individual exchanges within themed threads, and have simply deleted a number of them as they ruined the flow of imagery.
There are many photography forums on the Internet. My experience- many of them like the ensuing flame-wars that are initiated from the unwanted critiques. I've seen a lot of them. Not happening here, because the Mod team has actively curtailed and deleted comments.

 

[John King]

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Miguel, is it OK to comment on your shot?

 

[John King]

Craig, as a suggestion, when using search functions, either here or on the internet generally, use the absolute minimum of significant terms, and never use plurals.

You can always refine your search later, but structuring a complex query is almost an art form.

 

[John King]

I've visited this former psychiatric hospital a few times.
It's all gone now, with a VERY contentious history between my visits
and now. I'll explain if anyone is interested.

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I think that most of the old psychiatric hospital were pretty awful. Equally, I think they tried their best, with little to no understanding of how the brain works.

While our knowledge has only crept forward a little, at least we don't view mental illness quite as primitively as we did in the past. The incarceration of children under the committal by consent laws was a travesty ...

I have both ADD/ADHD and PDD (not otherwise defined). The latter is really extremely rare, as far as we know, and also extremely poorly understood. Even plain ADD/ADHD is very variable in presentation, and not well understood as to how it affects the individual internally. Much is (rightly) made of its effects on people other than the person who has it.

My primary qualification is in psychology (and politics, English and law), so rather interesting to me.

 

[SkedAddled]

Your comments are interesting to me, John.

While the early histories of these hospitals can be considered to be barbaric
and even cruel in their treatment practices, I think it's worth noting that the
medical and scientific communities were only going with trends and
accepted theories of the times.

Later on, psychotropic drug regimens and counseling led to far different
treatment methods, which eventually led to the 'deinstitutionalization' and release
of so many lost souls, but at what cost?

Our prison systems are now taking in record numbers of mentally-ill people,
while community and higher-level efforts are simply failing due to lack of interest
or impetus.

I'm sorry, but I am rather passionate about this.
I feel we should resurrect some of the State-level hospitals for treating mentally ill persons,
rather than placing the onus on families who don't know how to deal with this.

 

[John King]

@SkedAddled Craig, I agree with your summation.

We should neither be putting the mentally ill in jails, nor putting both themselves and possibly the community at risk by turning them out on the street. Most families do not have the capability of dealing with even minor deviations mentally from the "herd". Many homeless people have mental problems. Some studies putting the figure at 80% or more.

It is a serious problem, I agree.

An example or two from my own life:

1) My measured intelligence is outside the limits of what either a Stanford-Binet (for children up to about 18-20 y.o.) or the Wexler Adult Intelligence Scale (WAIS) are designed to measure, that is, greater than ±2 standard deviations from the mean, or from a measured IQ of 75 to 130. Yet I managed to fail two consecutive years at university in 1966-67. No one ever told me that I had to study ... After I worked that out (very long story), I never failed anything again. I hold an undergraduate degree, a post graduate degree and two professional qualifications.

2) By age 25, I had taught myself to "fit in" with other people, to some acceptable degree. Most humans have absorbed this by about age 4-5 y.o.

3) At age 75, I started to teach myself how to recognise faces ... I practice by trying to identify actors on the TV, and my wife tells me if I'm right, or not! She is very, very good at people skills, possibly to a fault.

4) I can recognise patterns in almost anything, drawing on a pretty comprehensive general knowledge, but cannot easily recognise faces. Weird.

As a species, we know next to nothing about anything.